Do you mean to replace linear fade? Possibly yes. But I don’t think Fade In could then be linear.
Yes, but again I really don’t think you can ship Cross Fade In, Cross Fade Out and Pro Fade Out. And the Fade In next to Pro Fade Out ought to be the same shape unless very clearly distinguished with a different name.
Somehow I doubt fade in is a lot less popular than fade out. I doubt many users have patience to work a lot harder at fade in than fade out.
I think either it should be shipped in Audacity (as one solution to making custom fades to/from non-zero) or it should be publicised much more widely, including in the Manual.
No I don’t think that linear fades should be replaced. I think they are such a basic and essential part of any audio editor that they will always be needed.
I’d be more than happy to replace cross-fade in and cross-fade out, not least because the name suggests that they do something quite different from what they actually do. I’d also be happy to see the “Leveller” and “Bass Boost” effects go.
I don’t see Pro Fade Out as a “replacement” for Cross-Fade Out, but if we don’t want the list of shipped effects to keep growing then some old effects will need to go if we are to put in new “high value” effects.
I’d class “Pro Fade In” as a “high value” effect because I think it will be very useful for very many users on a very regular basis. I think that including it adds value to Audacity by providing a one click solution to producing a really nice, musical fade out.
The main problem at the moment is that Audacity has just one long list of effects and no way of managing them.
There’s a few effects that I think Audacity really should have as standard, but they are unlikely to get in because they make that list too long.
Effects that are “missing” from Audacity include:
Distortion
Overdrive
Chorus
Stereo Reverb
De-Esser
Limiter (could be included in the Compressor)
Vibrato (could be combined with Tremolo)
Multi-band Compressor (not practical without real-time preview)
Parametric EQ(not practical without real-time preview)
If you don’t replace Cross Fade Out with Pro Fade Out, what are you going to replace the two Cross Fades with? If you want to replace the two Cross Fades with a single decent fading tool (or two) - for example replace with Fade by dB and a real Cross Fade, or with a “simple” Cross Fade and an “advanced” cross fade, or with a “composite” cross fade and a text envelope, then decisions have to be made and some finished plug-ins presented.
Yes Bass Boost could go, but the developers don’t seem interested in replacing it with your Tone Control. Losing Preview in the Nyquist replacement may be a reason.
I think that publicising it more widely would be a good thing.
I’m not totally happy with that effect but to develop it further really does require user feedback from people that are actually going to use it. I’m quite happy to develop it further if there is feedback from users. If there aren’t any users of that effect, then why not? What needs to be changed to make it a useful and accessible tool for shaping dynamics? If there’s no user feed back then it will stay as it is.
What if the “cross-fade” effects were removed - would people complain? What would they complain about?
I doubt that their complaints would be that actual cross-fading is more difficult or less convenient.
They may complain that they want to have a non-linear fade “shape” that goes the opposite way to the logarithmic fade of the Envelope Tool.
What do users want?
The fade tool that I would want is a “versatile” fade with the following features:
Ability to fade to a level other than silence (specified in dB).
A choice of fade “shapes”, preferably adjustable, which include:
Linear (default)
“Concave” (as the logarithmic fade of the Envelope Tool)
“Convex” (opposite of "concave)
“S” shaped (Sine)
As such a tool is a “two click tool” (requires user interaction), I’d prefer that it included both fade-in and fade-out options (so that it is listed only once in the menu).
When Audacity has better plug-in management (for example, customisable effect categories), then I’d probably prefer separate fade-in and fade-out versions (one less click to select the required fade type).
The lack of “Preview” in Nyquist effects is a major drawback for many effects.
Adding “Preview” would arguably be the single greatest enhancement that could be made to Nyquist plug-ins.
I’ve been using that trick now to good effect - and as I have a k/b shortcut for Fade-In repeated use is a breeze and no trouble at all.
Furthermore you’d have to physically prise Pro-Fade-Out out of my hands and off my PCs now - I would not want to give it up! I really do want to see it released in mainstream Audacity so that more users can benefit (it;s a little hidden/buried from most forum readers in the Nyquist sectio - and those users who aren’t forum users will not see it at all, which is a shame).
I think there are several use cases for a Nyquist fade tool, which is why this is a hard choice to make.
If you want to know what VI users would like it would be best to post on the Audacity4Blind mailing list ( FreeLists / Audacity® recording software and how the Blind can use it ). I’m a moderator on that list but I am not sure what they want. I suspect they just give up on complex manipulation of amplitude within tracks.
Feature Requests has lots of votes by implication for customised fades and/or text envelope.
New controls for start and end amplitude - quick linear fade to target volume from say 0.8 to 0.2, much simpler and quicker than the Envelope Tool (and VI-accessible) (25 votes)
Additional Choices of dB or % gain, and linear or logarithmic (8 votes)
Should include multiple envelope points (4 votes)
Probably the 25 votes overestimates the demand for the dreaded fading to a target because that idea was bundled into the description, but you can assume at least 15 people like the target fade idea in principle.
If you extrapolate into the equation the known criticisms of Envelope Tool as being “too fiddly” (some of which criticisms are I am sure not addressable in a GUI envelope because it would dumb it down too much), then I think there is a strong case for text envelope. If it is not ready to be shipped with Audacity, then of course it should not be shipped. What is wrong with it as it stands now?
There is nowhere to put it on the Wiki at the moment as far as I know. But I see no reason not to mention this pseudo log trick in the Manual at http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/Effect_Menu#fadein. We could put that and “For a more customizable logarithmic fade, use the Envelope Tool on the Tools Toolbar” in a hint underneath Fade Out, and say it applies to Fade In and Out.
But a decent Wiki page on the whole subject of fades, different fade shapes and when to use each could I think be a real boon.
Yes what to replace the two Cross Fades with is an important question.
Maybe they want repeat access without a dialogue to a fade shape (or a set of them) that they use regularly. This is another reason why shortcuts for particular settings of effects are important. If we get that then only one Fade in and one Fade Out that works without settings should be all that we need, and “Pro Fade Out” could be available in a Fade effect. I still don’t like having a one step pro fade out with no fade in equivalent - it just seems unbalanced to me.
Apart from the question of how much demand there may be for a “text envelope” and “target fades” I think the demand for the following is clear:
-fades other than to/from silence
-choice of fade shapes
-some way to get back to a “good” shape
-a good cross-fade that whatever it does, works with audio on the same track .
What isn’t clear is how many plug-ins are needed to accommodate these requests.
If we accept the two current Cross Fades are a liability, then we have two “slots” available without increasing the number of plug-ins at all.
With the two current Cross Fades removed, I would be happy with one Cross Fade effect and one Fade Effect, with an alternative option on having two fade effects - a “simple” fade effect (based on Fade by dB?) and a “more complex” fade effect (which I think should include a text box to enter envelope points and should be advertised as some kind of amplitude adjustment and not as a Fade effect). I can’t see a good case for two Cross Fade effects.
It’s rather like “going out” and “coming home”.
Many people program “coming home” into their Sat Navs, but it isn’t practical to program every type of “going out” into the Sat Nav.
(I don’t have time to respond to your many other excellent points right now - I’ll come back to them)
Having worked this new fade (and Steve’s multi-fade-in trick) for a while now, let me add my futher 2c worth.
The “Pro Fade” which is an out-fade gives a much more satisfactory fade-out to musical pieces than the traditional linear fade. You tend to work it on much longer sections than a fade-in (2-10 seconds typically). There is a “magical trick” in there based on real-world studio practice which Steve explained to me (and made me promise not to reveal) which gives a better sound - much more like the fades you will experience on music CDs. It works well both in situations
where you have a DJ talking over the end of a track where no fade currently exists
fading out to proper silence an LP track which has already been hardware-faded my a recording or mastering engineer.
For the start of LP tracks you normally need a very much shorter fade, just to transition from the new true silence to the start of the track - and in doing so you want to avoid the chance of an unwanted click. For these type of fades an extremely short linear fade is normally quite sufficient. A Pro-Fade-In could be seen as overkill in this sitiation.
Having said that though I can see that folk might be confused by just having a Pro-Fade-Out and not an equivalent Pro-Fade-In. I assume that I’m right in thinking that it wouldn’t be too hard to reversed the code steps and make an “in” from the “out”
As I (and others) have said before, the Envelope Tool could be made a lot less fiddly if linear transitions were available, either as a preference or just a straight replacement of the current logarithmic transitions. I don’t recall ever hearing anyone say anything nice about the use of logarithmic fades in the Envelope Tool.
The “Text Envelope” works fine, but I suspect that it may be a bit too complicated. It can be quite tricky to think of volume changes in terms of seconds (or any other units). For mouse users the Envelope Tool, if equipped with linear fades, would be much easier to use than either the current Envelope Tool or the Text Envelope plug-in. For non-mouse users we really need feedback about usability and whether it could be improved. My dissatisfaction with the tool is really just about the absence of user feedback. I can’t get very excited about an effect that I don’t use myself, unless I know that others find it useful.
Yes and that is reflected in Feature Requests. But I’m on about something more fundamental than that, which is about things like:
Why you change the envelope so easily if you click over the top or bottom blue line (I think it is impossible to click the bottom line with the line equidistant between the top and bottom of the envelope pointer, because the pointer changes to track height modification)
Perhaps some of these people are trying to move the whole envelope down by the same amount (you can’t)
There is no clue to what exact level you are setting an envelope point
Unintuitive method of amplifying outside the envelope (one would think you would continue dragging at the top or bottom, but that removes the envelope points. Even when you work it out you have to zoom vertically to see what you are doing and the amount of extra amplification is limited.
Confusion over having amplitude changes that aren’t rendered yet.
People who have low vision
People who can’t or don’t like using mice for precise manipulation
I certainly don’t find that tricky as a sighted user who can see the Timeline.
I find Text Envelope more intuitive than Fade by dB (where a positive amplification reduces the amplification for a fade in) and certainly Text Envelope is more powerful than Fade by dB.
Maybe the Text Envelope as currently labelled is too complex for some of the target audience for Fade by dB, but not I think too complex for anyone who wants to consider envelope points at all.
I think it would be a mistake to think that Text Envelope would never be easier for, or preferred by mouse users. For many simple jobs I strongly prefer Text Envelope.
Do you want to write to the Audacity4Blind list or should I see if I can get any input there about working with multi-point envelopes?
Thanks Gale. I’ve subscribed and posted to the Audacity4Blind list, but if you have or can get any additional feedback please let me know.
I’m not sure that it would be so easy for a non-sighted user. Hopefully some user feedback will clarify that.
I have other versions of “Fade by dB”.
The published version where a positive setting reduces amplification for a fade in is admittedly quirky, but once you get the hang of it, is extremely quick and convenient to use.
Other versions are more conventional by including a separate control to select fade-in and fade-out, but that is one extra click every time you need to change it.
There are also more powerful versions with additional features such as alternative fade shapes.
The difficulty with fade plug-ins is not in the coding, but in deciding on the feature set and GUI implementation.
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