Hi,
I’m in the process of digitizing some of my vinyl LPs. Here are some of my setup details:
Source is AR turntable with MC cartridge, passed through a Carver C1 preamp (for MC amplifier), then into a Berringer UCA202 converter with USB output to Windows 10 PC
Audacity 3.6.1 with all of the default recording settings (e.g., 44100 Hz, 32-bit float)
Following the Sample workflow for LP digitization with all recommended settings.
I’ve successfully converted several LPs to digital versions. Prior digital versions have had acceptable sound quality.
On a recent digitization (Al DiMeola’s Mediterranean Sundance album, title track), the third track came out very poorly; the other five tracks were fine. The entire first side of the LP was digitized in one audio track and no changes were made to settings between tracks. The third track has two acoustic guitars playing, ostensibly, on left and right channels, though it is a very well-balanced recording (YouTube, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3m_SQFd3xg). On the digitized version, one of the two guitars comes across fairly strong while the other is very faint. This is true regardless of how I play the digitized version (direct in Audacity, exported .wav file (32- or 16-bit) or .mp3. I can provide a sample if that would be of help.
Any thoughts you might have for resolving this issue would be greatly appreciated!
…It’s trying to “help” with communications by removing background or non-speaking sounds and it can cause a variety of weird problems. Some computers come with other sound-altering effects or “enhancements” provided by the computer manufacturer or driver manufacturer.
Thanks for your quick reply. Your suggestion seemed like a great place to start. I checked my Windows Enhancements but almost everything was disabled (other than equalizer). To be certain, I checked the ‘Disable all sound effects’ box and tried again. Unfortunately, the problem remains. I also ported the file to my Android Phone and played it there using the Pi Music Player (no Windows ‘help’); I got the same result. So, the issue seems to be in the recording process, not in the playback.
Still, it seems as if you are on the right track. I don’t know if there are other Windows settings I might check that might affect the recording process…
Thanks for your reply. The problem is quite repeatable - only on this particular track (the same album has another track with just guitar that digitizes pretty well, along with all of the other tracks). I’ve tried recording with different bit rates and other settings but always get the same effect.
Just FYI - Audacity doesn’t normally “do anything” to the digital audio data during recording other than convert to mono or stereo (depending on the settings), and with an internal soundcard it can adjust the recording volume, but that usually doesn’t work with USB. If you want to apply effects, they have to be done after recording.
So, it’s likely Windows or something on the analog side.
One thing that might give a clue is to swap the left & right connections to see if the problem is stays with the channel. You can try the connections into, and out-of the preamp (as separate experiments).
Sometimes it’s also helpful to unplug one side at a time to make sure the “stereo” is behaving as expected.
I got the impression that it plays OK through your stereo. Is that the case and are you using the same setup with the same preamp?
I believe you can also monitor through the USA202 without going-through the computer and it might be helpful to know if that’s good or bad.
P.S.
Although it would be good to solve this problem, since this recording is on YouTube you can steal it from there - Recording Desktop Audio. Technically, it’s a copyright violation and a violation of YouTube rules, and I don’t usually advocate digital piracy, but you (or somebody) paid for the vinyl and you have a legal right to make a digital copy of it for yourself. (I’m not completely “without sin” myself. )
It was my understanding as well that Audacity didn’t really alter the recording beyond the items you mentioned. I need to look into the Windows side a bit more.
I assume that the USB input to my computer is processed through the sound card. I’ve also wondered if it could be sound card issue. The PC I’m using is pretty dated and has only the integrated sound card, “Integrated 7.1 with WAVE MAXXAudio 4.” To what extent could the sound card affect the digital quality?
The playback through my stereo is great! Unfortunately, even my best digitized recordings don’t rival that. I’ve been told in the past that my digitized quality should be virtually indistinguishable from the analog, but I’ve never achieved that. Maybe there’s a clue in that as well.
I’ve always used the same setup: same turntable/cartridge, preamp, UCA202. I can try to swap left and right channels on my UCA202 input to see if that “reverses” the effect. Also, the UCA202 does have a monitoring capability. I can’t tell the difference between the switch settings which suggests that it’s not the UCA202; that or the switch doesn’t work.
BTW, I used the link you provided and figured out how to record my desktop audio. I paid for the vinyl (many, many years ago) and believe that making a copy for personal use is covered under “fair use.” ( Is it legal to copy a CD for personal use? - 33rd Square)
If that’s a desktop computer with a regular soundcard you can try the line-input (normally color-coded blue). The line input is often quite-good, (although the mic input on a soundcard or laptop usually isn’t very good and is not compatible with “pro” stage/studio mics.) I wouldn’t expect any difference but it’s something else to try.
That’s true, if it were working properly and when played-back through the same stereo and speakers, at the same volume. etc.
I wasn’t sure how the USB input was processed. So, it sounds as if going directly from the UCA202 USB out to the computer bypasses the sound card. The UCA202 has L+R RCA outputs and I think I have a cable to combine those into a stereo minijack so I should be able to try a direct input to the sound card.
The fact that my digitized albums are not equal to the vinyl LP suggests that something is not working properly. The search for the culprit goes on!
Reluctantly I must tell you that in my opinion the A to D device you are using (Berringer UCA202) will not accurately reproduce exactly what you can hear on a good quality analogue system. There are plenty of better quality devices that will, and an approximate guide would be the maximum sampling rate that the device can achieve.
I have digital versions of all of my vinyl collection sampled at 192 KHz with some more recent ones mastered at 384 KHz before using Audacity to save track by track at 192KHz ( 24 bit wav).
Your ears are telling you its not good enough and I recommend that you believe your ears and not theories about adequate sample rates.
Thanks for this feedback. Yes, my ears have been telling me from day one that the digitized recordings are not as good as the analog. IMHO, they are not even close.
I’ve had others tell me that the Berringer should be able to reproduce that sound accurately, but I haven’t been successful with that. So far, I have not been able to find a cause for that (e.g., an issue with Windows settings).
Is there a particular device that you would recommend?
The are enhancements on the inputs too. Also under control panel preferences in windows 11.
However I get the impression they depend on if the driver has optional enhancements which are categorised and according to the use of the input, eg communications.
The documentation is really hard to find so I just disable for all inputs, just in case.
We’ve got bigger problems here unless the weak channel is a defect in the Behringer.
I don’t have the Behringer but I’m going to disagree. “CD quality” (16/44.1) is technically better than analog vinyl in every way.
The Behringer doesn’t have a recording volume control and that can be an issue it its internal ADC is overloaded (clipped/distorted).
Some people prefer the sound of vinyl so to them it’s “better.” But we can digitally capture the analog sound. Here is a short story about an informal demonstration/experiment.
I grew-up with vinyl and I always hated the “snap”, crackle", and “pop”. I could live with the other limitations/defects (constant low-level background noise, frequency response variations and occasional distortion) but thankfully we no longer have to.
The pro studio standard is 24/96 but 16/44 is generally better than human hearing.
In a proper blind ABX test almost nobody can hear the difference between a high-resolution and a copy down-sampled to 16/44.1. (Blind, level-matched listening tests can be humbling! )
I agree that there is an unresolved issue in the weak channel. That issue is quite repeatable but only appears (so far) on the one track I described earlier. Still, it’s a good test track to see if I can resolve the issue.
I have been exploring Windows 10 settings. I have turned off all Windows sound “enhancements.” These affect sound output when a digital track is played through the sound card. I have also looked at all of the Windows input controls. As noted earlier, there is very little that can be done with those controls, just line input level and L-R balance. I don’t see anything in those settings that would cause the issue I’m experiencing.
Two other things were suggested earlier to help diagnose the problem and I have as yet to try those
Swap the L and R line inputs to the Berringer to see if the problem follows the channel.
Bypass the USB output and use the Berringer line out directly to my sound card input. The Berringer is USB-powered, so I will see if it works properly on USB battery power while I try the direct input to the sound card.
I’m running Windows 10 and have explored the sound inputs from every angle I can find. Windows 10 views the Berringer USB input as a microphone (USB Audio CODEC). The primary input control is Volume. Under Additional Device Properties / Advanced I can also set the default format sample rate and bit depth (e.g., 16 bit, 44100 Hz). though I also have boxes checked for giving applications exclusive control that should override that default setting as needed.
Your joke about “maybe the good bits are being thrown away” triggered a thought. If the Berringer can only export 16-bit 44.1 kHz and I use the recommended 32-bit float setting there must be some process for addressing the difference in bits. What is the algorithm for addressing this and could it introduce an artifact like the one I’m hearing? It would be easy to test this by setting Audacity to exactly match the Berringer output. One more thing I can try…
Don’t know anything about the Berringer but have extensive experience with PSAUDIO NuWave Phono Converter (NPC) and more recently Music Hall PA2.2 - both were phone pre-amp and USB/Analog out.
I’ve recorded/converted more than 1,000 vinyl albums and am a former senior software engineer with embedded firmware and controller experience.
I can tell you that I had problems with the PS Audio NPC - which was both disappointing and frustrating. Their HQ is less than 10-miles from me and in the end I took the unit in for a complete service and replacement for the USB controller and sold it on ebay after verifying it worked. It was inconsistent, but not repeatable.
I’ve never had problems with the Music Hall unit, and have used a variety of USB cables. Both units were connected to a USB > Ethernet CAT6 Extender - 32ft cable - Ethernet > USB WIndows 10 via Dell Desktop.
How is does your Berringer appear in Audacity after you’ve connected it?
Both the Music Hall and PS Audio devices provided their own Windows drivers, and their own audio hostdevice. Windows simply passes the data to audacity through the USB host device.
On the Windows sound driver properties, which is shown. You must not exceed the out specification of the Berringer. The Music Hall will do 24-bit/96kHz linear PCM output, I have mine set to 24-bit/48kHz.(Yes FLAC etc. I know…)
You should ensure the input level is less than 100% - you can always normalize/amplify etc. on final export (I use 85%) and always normalize to -1 sometimes reducing that depending on the source material(this is especially true of laptops which can power throttle the CPU even when plugged in, depending on the power scheme).
You should also be sure to select both options for exclusive mode. Depending on what processor your Windows computer has can mean a mismatch between the processor, drivers and applications. It should not make any difference to the data stream but if the processor is busy it theoretically can ask the USB host to resend packets, thus causing problems.
I’m not a stereo junkie, but the audio from the Music Hall also goes via RCA cables to a Denon AVC 700 series amp and that has equalized and equalized settings that feed 4x Klipsch surround sound speakers and a Klipsch subwoofer.
If I feed the USB sound out through the Windows sound drivers, out through the built-in soundcard to RCA > Denon It definitely doesn’t sound as good as the Music Hall > RCA > Denon.
However, once I export the recording, and play it back via a Logitech Transporter > RCA > Denon it sounds as good if not better. As noted above, you can filter and edit the sounds, clicks and re-equalize inside Audacity and effectively produce as good as a CD quality digital rip from a VG+ recording.
Every step in the process can add or remove bits, if the analog sound is to loud you can cause bits to be dropped. You can see that clipping happening in audacity, you can’t in any of the other steps, only what finally reaches Audacity.
Finally, if you are using Noise Reduction in your workflow, be very careful and very slective what noice you select before doing noise reduction.
I think called “resampling”, and I guess would be surprising cause in this case as just one track. Really weird issue. Did you triple check sample rate same for both interface and audacity? Seem to recall later has various places to set.
I wonder if some audio artifact on that track/channel is kicking in some processing like channel specific compression. Just a brainstorm which no doubt holds no water.
Did you try swapping the audio leads from deck as someone suggested?
I am currently using an RME ADI-2 pro for A to D mastering but I think the RME Babyface is nearly as good if its still available. In the past I have used the Roland/Edirol FA-66 but as this was based on Firewire it is no longer available. The Roland UA- 55 is probably a very good budget alternative but I haven’t tried it.
Dipping in to the realms of controversy again I suggest that devices which use ASIO drivers are to be recommended and the version of Audacity with ASIO support will give the most faithful recording quality. For playback on my main system I use the IfI Zen DAC signature for the best sound to my ears.
Its all subjective but I believe I can reproduce the output from my Audio Technica ART-9 to be indistinguishable from the direct analogue and its a lot easier to play than wearing out my vinyl!
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