Multi-Track Digital Recorder vice other solutions

Special Interest Groups Recording Equipment
1

Hello Everyone,

Originally I had posted a long winded question regarding a possible gear setup I was considering purchasing and whether it would work. Well, after pondering the question further, and doing more research, and realizing I posted in the wrong forum ( :smiley: ), I decided I’d rephrase my actual question here.

Everyone (including myself) appear to be making a fuss about recording multil-tracks with audacity and it appears to be a very prominent concern among many. If I only have a Behringer Xenyx 802 mixer, utilizing both XLR microphone slots, another slot for sound effect/music, and the FX send for Skype interviews… Why not just purchase a multitrack recorder off Amazon?

This seemed like a simple question, and they have multi-track recorders for up to 6 tracks, as cheap as $89.99, that would record everything and then allow you to dump separate tracks via SD card onto your computer and then thus process through audacity for post-production. Would this not work?

I was considering purchasing this one for $99.00 as I only need to record 4 separate tracks, separately:
http://www.amazon.com/DP-006-Portastudio-Portable-Multi-Track-Recorder/dp/B00BEGS5NI/ref=sr_1_2?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1439360819&sr=1-2&keywords=multitrack+recorder

However, I may wait and get the Zoom H4N, because it records at a better rate evidently.

My concern is, would these hook up to my mixer, and be capable of distinguishing separate tracks? Also, I like all the features of the Zoom H4N, but I have no use for the microphones that come with it because I want to use my own microphones connected through my mixer, so would this be a concern?

Thank you.

2

I don’t see where the recorder is getting six music channels from.

**- Built-in High-quality Stereo Condenser Microphones

  • Two Mic/Line inputs**

So only two channels are available to the outside world. You can’t walk up to it with a handfull of cables, mixed microphone and line level, and plug them all in (attach 1).

And no, the mixer only has 3 outputs. Left Sound Mix, Right Sound Mix and Effects Send (mono).

The much larger mixers have individual channel strip sends. You can mix down a show locally to make sure everything is there (that would be like the audience mix during a live show), but each microphone and sound also goes to its own muti-channel recorder for mix-down later. To pull that off, you need a multi-track recorder that actually has six and eight individual input connections.

There has to be something about that I don’t understand. I am sure that they’re playing games with the words. My Peavey LPV-6!!! mixer will only manage four microphones and two of them don’t have all the controls available. It reads good in the advertising.


They do this a lot. This multi-track field recorder has 8 microphones and 8 high-level connections (attach 2). So it’s a 16 track recorder. Oh, and it only has meters for 12 connections.

http://www.taiaudio.com/sound-devices-688-16-track-field-recorder/

Koz
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3

I’ve only experienced this stuff by having friends that do it, but they have much larger systems that are pretty simple even though they look terrifying.

I know it doesn’t seem possible, but once you master your mixer, you can walk up to larger mixers and know the basics of what’s going on. They’re different only in details for the application. The broadcast mixers have thus and so, the music mixers have this and that, etc. But the microphones still come in along the top and go straight down to the faders along the bottom. Mix-Down and the output faders are on the right. Control-Room Monitor is just above that.

So it took me about a minute to get sound out of the eight-foot long sound consoles where I used to work. I spent most of my time turning things off.

“Let’s see. For this test I don’t need the equalizers, don’t need the compressors, don’t need effects sends, don’t need re-entry, pan controls in the middle…etc.” Working down each strip top to bottom.

Koz

4

Tascam (and others) have a habit of announcing 2-channel recorders as 6-channel because they can play back four channels while recording 2…

I don’t think there is any real 4-channel recorder under 100$ on the market. The Roland R26 is a real 6 channel recorder, but it’s around 400$ and still has limits as it doesn’t have 6 inputs.

5

Hmm, so if I want to record 4 tracks separately, couldn’t I just purchase 2 of these multi-track recorders and hook them both up to my mixer? I see them used for $85.00 a piece.

I feel as if I’d also need to upgrade my mixer, but that can all be saved for.

6

The problem with that approach is that the two recorders will not record at exactly the same speed. So when you combine the track later you will find that they will slowly drift out of sync over time. That can be corrected by manually cutting small bits from whichever recording is getting later, or possibly even by using the “change speed” effect to adjust one to fit the other but either of those can be a pain in the rear.

7

The ESI Maya is the most afforable 4 channel interface ATM, at 89 €:

http://www.thomann.de/be/esi_maya_44_usb.htm

It has no mic preamps, but should work with you mixer. And if that mixer has auxes, you can record 4 channels independently. It would render the built-in USB interface of the mixer useless, tho.

Next up is the Alesis io4, which has good mic preamps, at 149 €:

http://www.thomann.de/be/alesis_io4.htm

Both are older, reliable gear that support USB audio compliance. Meaning the can run without drivers, which will allow you to use them for years to come.

8

Hmm, so if I want to record 4 tracks separately, couldn’t I just purchase 2 of these multi-track recorders and hook them both up to my mixer? I see them used for $85.00 a piece.

I feel as if I’d also need to upgrade my mixer, but that can all be saved for.

Strange, I am still new to all of this but I would have figured the same device would have recorded at the same exact speed. But I guess this is why it is good not to just buy things without doing research! :slight_smile:

The ESI Maya is the most afforable 4 channel interface ATM, at 89 €:

ESI Maya 44 USB+ – Thomann België

It has no mic preamps, but should work with you mixer. And if that mixer has auxes, you can record 4 channels independently. It would render the built-in USB interface of the mixer useless, tho.

Next up is the Alesis io4, which has good mic preamps, at 149 €:

http://www.thomann.de/be/alesis_io4.htm

Both are older, reliable gear that support USB audio compliance. Meaning the can run without drivers, which will allow you to use them for years to come.

I was trying to research these devices in more detail as at least the first one looks like a good fit.

You said they can run without drivers, does this mean it is irrelevant (in general) what hardware on my computer I am using? I am using a Lenovo G50 laptop with upgraded Ram to 8 GB for recording, which I know is not ideal, but that is what I am using. I would hate to purchase this and then find out in addition to this device, I also need a more powerful computer.

Also, I currently have my mixer connected via the Behringer UCA2-2 USB audio card via the output jack on my mixer. If I purchased the ESI Maya, would the audio go like this?

Mic–>Mixer–>ESI Maya–>Computer

Or would it go:

Mic–>Mixer–>ESI Maya–>Mixer–>UCA202–>Computer

Looks like I’ll need to upgrade my Xenyx 802, it doesn’t have line outs for every line.

9

Yes. It might take some fiddling* under Windows, but these devices work with a built-in “USB audio class” driver in Windows, OSX and Linux.

You certainly don’t need better computer hardware. Any decent computer will do. I’ve done 16 channels recently on an old Powerbook G4 at 1 GHz. That computer is over ten years old and only has one GB of ram.

You might need to turn of Wifi, Bluetooth, AV scanners and anything else that interferes from the background.

And you might need to play with the buffer settings in Audacity’s preferences to get a stable setup. You only need to do that once.

Yes. That’s the way to go.

If you have no direct outs, no aux busses (as I think this Behringer does), you’ll need to upgrade. And then the Alesis might be a better deal. 2 mics directly into the Alesis, and two lines from your mixer.

Do a bit of googling before buying either. That’s always worth it. And ask questions wherever you can.

  • EDIT:

I see your laptop is running Win 8. See here:
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows8_1-hardware/windows-81-usb-audio-device-driver-install-failure/c34265c7-2c33-459a-afd2-e28cee8e640c?auth=1

10

Thank you for all the assistance.

I’ve thought about it hard, and I recognized that currently, my mixer is working, and that the only reason I was considering purchasing a new mixer in addition to the other item is because I was curious about better Pre-Amps and… I want to be able to send audio out to the device that we were talking about.
20150818_185437.jpg

I am assuming that for the 2 XLR inputs, where it states “Line In”, this is where these inputs could go to route the audio to the ESI Maya. In theory, this seems like it would work, except now I’m still wondering about my co-host who is coming through Skype via the FX Send. If it were just me, I could manage, however individuals via Skype is my primary concern.

Any way out of this?

11

Strange, I am still new to all of this but I would have figured the same device would have recorded at the same exact speed. But I guess this is why it is good not to just buy things without doing research!

It happens any time you have a difference between the record and play systems. Say the sample rate of one system is 44100 and the other is 44101. If you played them both back on a 44100 player, the 44101 recording would be running at the wrong speed and certainly wouldn’t match the 44100 recording.

That’s unrealistic extreme, but we have postings of people who got to the end of an hour podcast with separate recorders and had very clear sync problems. These systems were never intended to be surgically accurate over time, particularly the lower end consumer devices.

The movie people use separate sound. The film camera is over here and the sound recorder is over there. They have scary accurate tolerances to maintain sync between them.

Koz

12

I am assuming that for the 2 XLR inputs, where it states “Line In”, this is where these inputs could go to route the audio to the ESI Maya

Line-In is where you would plug your guitar (for example). Many mixers disable the XLR microphone connector when you do that. All the connections along the top left of your mixer suck (so to speak). You only have three blows (if we’re talking about the same mixer). Main Mix Left, Main Mix Right and Effects (FX) Send. Full Stop. Some mixers have Tape Out Left and Tape Out Right (mine does that), but that’s just a copy of Main Mix.

What you want is very unusual in a consumer mixer. It’s desirable and I’m perfectly clear why you want that, but it’s weird, which is why we’re having such a hard time finding a recorder. That’s the kind of thing that starts being common in the four foot wide studio mixers with a million knobs.


Microphone Preamplifiers (MicPre) are very important. The noise they add to the show (fffffffff) is the quietist the show will ever get unless you perform noise reduction in post production. You can make the noise worse, but not better. That’s the one place to get major bang for the buck when you buy equipment.

1500×888 190 KB

This is only half joking. That’s a Shure FP33 field mixer (widen your browser window). It’s legendary for having world-class quiet, well behaved MicPres. And yes, that one is still working. It’s shown going out on a job.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=118708&gclid=CIaJjOmqtccCFQmCaQodhjMEBw&is=REG&m=Y&Q=&A=details

Koz

13

Hmm, so what I’m gathering is there isn’t a single mixer available that will allow the user to have a line out function for the FX Send channel that can be connected to an additional device unless I want to drop thousands of dollars? I believe you because I’ve been looking for over a week, at least on Amazon, and its strange that this feature wouldn’t be more common. Especially with the emergence of podcasting over the last 10-15 years, you would think this would be a no brainer considering that many individuals utilize Skype based interviews.

Why would someone only want to hook themselves up to a noise gate, compressor or digital recorder and not their guest OR co-host that is coming through Skype?

At this point, I think I’m going to give Pamela a shot.

14

Especially with the emergence of podcasting over the last 10-15 years, you would think this would be a no brainer considering that many individuals utilize Skype based interviews.

I can totally make a podcast with two guests and a live Skype “call-in.” I just have to mix it live. This is a learnable talent. That’s how broadcast call-in shows do it. That’s how those people on the Pando Podcast do it and that’s how most people do it. You get to the end of the show, cut off trash on both ends and post it. Go to Starbucks.

Post production takes five times the length of the show. So if you insist on capturing each and every component, stream and voice of your show and mix it later down to a perfectly timed and polished show, your hour podcast is going to take five hours to cut. I’m not making that up. That’s a remarkably accurate rule of thumb in entertainment production. It can get longer, but it rarely gets shorter.

That’s why nobody makes the hardware you want. Nobody wants to produce the show the way you want to.

If you have all the time on earth, then certainly Pamela your way into the interviews and collect the music beds and themes and set up time for live in-studio interviews. Cut it all together in post production some night. People do that, but those people also have tight scripts so nobody has to guess what’s supposed to happen and when. You can’t ad-lib those.

There was one thing we did for a while at work. Everybody calls in. You can do Skype conference call (used to be an extra cost option) and everybody is on their own Skype call from home. Pamela-only. No mixer, no complex wiring or wacky signal routing. Skype takes care of everything.

If you do have music, you can put that in during post production.

Koz

15

Look at the low-end Soundcraft range. Some of those have auxes out that will allow you to send 2 channel mixes of all or a selection of channels out, independent of the main mix.

Usually, these are called “Spirit Folio”. Still several hundred dollars, but at least not in the thousands of dollars range.

I agree the function you are looking for would be quite handy, but only the slightly bigger tables offer that.

16

allow the user to have a line out function for the FX Send channel that can be connected to an additional device

I think there is a misconception there. All these mixers will do that…once. There is one FX-Send connection (line level) that takes the mix-down of all the FX-Send knobs. Any time you advance any one FX-Send knob, it’s sound is added to the others on the single FX-Send connection.

You want one of those for each performer independent of the other performers. That one step is where you start writing big checks.

Koz

17

Mixing Console/Mixing Desk/Mixing Table.

Koz

18

There is one other much less obvious problem with doing the podcast entirely in post production. That’s how This American Life used to do it. They would all collect their pieces and sit down with the editor and punch it all together into one show.

It was terrible.

Everybody micromanaged their segment and since everybody knew this was almost open-ended post production, there was no end of things you can insist on, patch, adjust, filter, process, etc. etc. etc.

Ira went to a drop dead time and live production model, just like the grownups. The show rolls for record at 6PM. If you’re here, you’re in the show. If you’re not, sorry.

After the initial shock of having a different production format, the show improved dramatically. The opening graphic for the show web page used to feature Ira racing down the hallway to make the “air time.”

Nobody raced in the old system.

Koz