Electrical Noise Recording Electric Guitar into Laptop/Audacity

Special Interest Groups Making Music
1

Using the auxillary speaker out on my Crate guitar amp into Behringer UCA222 interface into Asus laptop computer and I get quite a bit of electrical noise. Unplugging the computer helps a lot but I need the power of the computer, (I think/also I have a bad computer battery/short life…may be enough to record a song though?) but there is still some noise even unplugging using computer’s battery power. — On my last song ‘Its Over Now’ at https://www.soundclick.com/Noncompliant some noise can still be heard in the song even after extensive Audacity editing.

I also used a Tascam DR05 into the Behringers other RCA channel for the vocals but had no electrical noise there.

Does anyone know how I’m gettting the bad noise and what the fix may be?

Thanks, Ron (Noncompliant, formerly Black Dog) https://www.soundclick.com/Noncompliant

2

I don’t hear anything particularly bad. Can you post some guitar and noise before you did anything to it?

Koz

3

Here is an example of the noise… attached below.

More info:

4

That sounds like a pick-up coil placed close to a computer …
Freesound - Recordings with an inductive coil by hz37 [halfway]

5

Thanks but not fixed yet.

I will check the guitar in proximity to the computer next session (probably tonight!) but I’m guessing:

(1) The UCA222 is just not enough between the guitar amp and computer.

or

(2) There is not an interface allowing such real time recording without noise (w/computer plugged in anyway)… and a separate device/work station seperate from the computer is needed.

Ron (Noncompliant, formerly Black Dog) https://www.soundclick.com/Noncompliant

6

Not a good idea. Other than sound quality problems being very likely, there is a serious risk of blowing the inputs of the UCA222.

Sounds like a good clue.

As Crate have been shut down for quite a while, I’m having trouble finding any info on that. Is it one of their tube amps, or solid state? Roughly how old is it? Does it have an “effects send” or line level “AUX” output?

I doubt that the UCA222 is the cause of the problem, though it may be responsible for “revealing” a problem elsewhere.


What happens if you record from the Crate GX-25M auxillary speaker out directly into your Tascam DR05 (IMPORTANT: Be careful - a speaker output level can be sufficient to destroy the input of a recording device)

7

Thanks Steve (/Forum)!

I need to be clearer here on my computer’s power supply, again it is an Asus notebook and it has a weak/bad battery and really I think the power supply is more a charger being it is constantly charging, or charging when need be - and a bad battery being always in need of charging … anyway so there’s that going on when ‘plugged in’ with the ‘charger’ going and probably not going well as the battery does not charge well or much … (Thought: remove battery) Okay just removed the battery and just plugged in and the computer is working fine (…so far, so good) — I don’t have time to check while recording yet but will ASAP!! - Thanks very much Steve/Forum!

Previously written/still relevant:

Crate GX-25M guitar amp/Behringer UCA222 USB Audio Interface:

I have a solid state amp (‘Who can afford a tube?’) and w/ original owners manual (1996) and all I see in there is a system block diagram only showing an attenuator (what’s that?) on the headphones (1/4 jack) out, not on the internal speaker or external speakers (1/4 jack). The only other info in the manual notes to use an external speaker with a min. of 4 ohms impedance. — Also, the external speaker mutes the amps regular-internal speaker when used.

The external speaker only shows a speaker icon on the amp itself (and it’s mono, it seems), better for the one channel per the UCA222 I thought, being the other UCA222 channel I use for vocals.

Should I use the headphones out (stereo) instead of the external speaker out (mono) for recording? I did experiment recording with that (the headphone out) and it also had the noise problem and a weaker signal, too weak for recording I thought, much weaker than the external speaker out. Note: I also monitor with headphones per the UCA222 headphone jack as I perform/record so I can hear what effects/levels I’m performing-recording at… Though I need to experiment more there with maybe turning the amp up to boost the headphones output, if possible? But the signal from the ext-spkr seemed better overall, and under clipping and mono as desired.


Also: in the Behringer’s UCA222 manual it alludes to using another device between an electric guitar and UCA222: the V-AMP3 (‘a preamp’ by Behringer) but it does not inform whether this is crucial or not.

Tascam DR05 portable recorder capabilty:

I want to record two channels (voc. and gtr. separately) so recording from the Crate GX-25M’s (via cable) directly into my Tascam DR05 portable recorder’s ‘one’ ‘mic/ext in’ is not a prefered option, being the DR05 only has one recording input capability which I use the for the vocals with an external dynamic mic (*preferring this over the built-in mics’ sound, which is muted when the ‘mic/ext in’ is used).

Also: ‘someone’ recommended one of these:

Ebtech Hum X Hum Exterminator $79
https://www.guitarcenter.com/Ebtech/Hum-X-Hum-Exterminator.gc

Ebtech HE-2-XLR Hum Eliminator with XLR $93
https://www.guitarcenter.com/Ebtech/HE-2-XLR-Hum-Eliminator-with-XLR.gc

Ebtech 2-Channel Hum Eliminator (1/4 jacks no XLR) $72

I will update this ASAP, thanks again everyone.

Ron (Noncompliant, formerly Black Dog) https://www.soundclick.com/Noncompliant

8

Personally, if I’m recording an electric guitar, and the sound out of the amp/combo is good, then I prefer to record it with a microphone. The microphone placement can make a huge difference to the recorded sound, so some experimentation is required to find the sweet spot.

Is recording with a mic a possibility for you?

9

No — recording guitar with a mic is not an option for me at this time b/c I only have one mic capability and I like live recording with guitar and vocals simultaneously (and, I do not want to over dub tracks). I also now realize two mics or separate recording methods for each: vocals and guitar are better as opposed to using one mic to capture both.

Thought: Can the UCA222 record straight through one of it’s channels w/a mic (?). I have a dynamic mic with a 1/8 in. plug which I will next try to plug directly into one of the UCA222 RCA channels (jack in) - for the vocals (using adapters, cables as needed). Also I have experimented w/this dynamic mic and it is not good for much unless very close up, so using it to capture vocals and guitar simultaneously/live did not work well, though some of my recent songs were done this way … once I plugged the guitar in directly I found the sound so much better, so this seemed the way to go. Though I am not dismissing your mic’ing the amp recommendation for future reference. I wonder which popular songs were done this way as opposed to ‘line-in’?

Update: Removing the battery from my Notebook computer did not eliminate the electrical noise/hum — only unplugging the charger/AC power supply did. I also moved around with my guitar, varying the distance of the guitars pickup’ to the computer and It did not change the constant electrical noise/hum a bit.

On my last song: “Baby What You Want Me To Do” (originally by Jimmy Reed 1959) https://www.soundclick.com/Noncompliant - I charged my computer’s battery up then unplugged it and recorded! — On prerecording/testing for this song I learned that the mic via the DR05 puts out a weak signal unless operating on ‘bus’ power (plugged into a USB port on my computer) … then I was able to get the vocals volume up, and as loud as desired. — Recording route: Mic in DR05’s ext-mic jack (note: I only needed to use standby recording mode per the DR05), out DR05’s headphone jack, in UCA222-to computer. My computer has three USB ports: mouse, UCA222, DR05.

Further (TMI): Well if the mic works in the UCA222 (for the vocals) (which I doubt it will, work with enough power anyway) then that leaves the guitar open for experimentation with the DR05’s built-in mics for mic’ing the amp which I can’t see playing out very well. I’m not sure what kind of mics are on the DR05 but they do not record like a dynamic, they pick up every noise around and have very high sub and mid frequencies I’ve battled for years editing down … on my last song I barely had to edit any … especially with the guitar line in direct, which created what I thought was a near perfect frequency spectrum.

10

Could you describe exactly what you mean by “one mic capability”.

That’s understandable. A lot of singer guitarists like to do that.
What I don’t understand though, is how you are doing that with a UCA222. The inputs on this device are “line level”, and Audacity can only record from one “device” at a time, so how exactly are you doing this?
Is there a mixer in your setup?
Are you using the DR05 as an analog mic with the line output straight into the UCA222 ?

11

Over the last 50 or 60 years, probably most of them.

There’s an article here that you may find interesting: https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/guitar-amp-recording

I’m usually in the SM57 camp, though occasionally I’ll dual mic a cab with a condenser + SM57, or an SM57 + line in from a DI box.

12

No, or at least “not very well”.

When connecting up equipment, it is important to match signal levels.

From low level to high level:

  1. Record player (“phono”) has an extremely low signal level, and requires special (RIAA) equalization and a lot of amplification to produce a usable signal.
  2. Microphone (“normal” analog mic) typically has a very low signal level. Usually connects to other equipment via a 3 pin “XLR” plug. Usually around 30 to 60 dB below “line level”.
  3. Instrument level (“typical” of guitars and basses). Usually a bit below line level. Magnetic pickups generally work best with fairly high impedance inputs, whereas piezo pickups (commonly found on acoustic guitars) require an extremely high input impedance unless they have an active pre-amp built in. While keyboards are usually described as “instrument level”, their outputs are often close to “line level”.
  4. Line level (the signal level for CD / tape decks, mixing desks, etc). Typically around 1000 x higher than “mic level”. Most audio equipment works at around “line level”. A slight complication here is that their are two commonly used “line level”. Professional standard line level is a fair bit higher than domestic / consumer equipment “line level”. Some mixing desks allow you to switch between the two standards.
  5. Headphone level. Powering headphones requires quite a bit more oomph than can be provided by a line level signal. A headphone amplifier is used to increase the power from line level so that the headphones can produce a reasonable volume. Great care should be taken if you ever have to connect a “headphone out” to a “line level” input - if you don’t keep the headphone output at a low level, the extra power could damage a line level input.
    A “headphone output” should never be connected directly into a “microphone level” input. The risk of destroying the mic input is high.
  6. Speaker level. This is the highest level. Depending on the power of the amp, the voltage level can exceed 30 v, which is many thousands of times higher than mic level. Some DI boxes provide a “pad” switch which makes it possible to connect a speaker output to a line level input, however, care must still be taken to avoid overloading the line level input.

Update: Just found this article about DI’ing: Prepare to DI!

13

UPDATE (electrical hum): I think I solved my initial problem here, though I have not tested yet (I do not have a studio and it’s a bit of an ordeal to set up for recording) but I will ASAP, to confirm this. I found a problem with my cordless phone base plugged into the wall nearby (a transformer type, I think it’s called, plug, the next outlet over (from where my computer is), when I was listening to a John Lee Hooker CD (on a radio on the same outlet as the phone base) … ‘John left plenty of silence in his recording/performance style for me to notice the hum!’ So I troubleshot’ by first and obviously unplugging the transformer type plug … then … the CD’s silent interludes were crystal clear! I also, luckily, had another phone I then switched out, also with a transformer type plug, though seemingly newer and smaller. I have had no problem since…with the CD anyway…at this point.

UPDATE TO ABOVE UPDATE: No this did not fix the hum when recording, only unplugging my computer and running on battery power does (as mentioned — it did get the hum out of my CD player though).

Reply to Steve’s (much appreciated!) Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:48 am post:

ANSWER: mic’s I have (i.e., capability):

  1. a thrift store dynamic mic with a 1/8 (3.5mm) plug.
  2. the built in mics (left, right) on the DR05

STEVE’S QUESTIONS: “…how you are doing that with a UCA222. The inputs on this device are “line level”, and Audacity can only record from one “device” at a time…?”

“Is there a mixer in your setup?”

ANSWER: no.

“Are you using the DR05 as an analog mic with the line output straight into the UCA222 ?”

ANSWER: I used the DR05’s ext/mic jack (in) for my dynamic mic, then with DR05 in stanby recording mode I recorded via the DR05’s headphone jack (out) into one of the two UCA222 channels in.

The DR05’s headphone jack is the only out on the DR05 so it’s either that or recording on the DR05 then uploading/transferring the file to my computer afterwards.

Also, the recordings are all mono, 1. from the DR05 (vocals) into one of the UCA222’s RCA channel (left or right) and 2. from the guitar amp’s external speaker out (jack) into the other UCA222’s RCA channel in (left or right). Then Audacity captures it as a stereo recording.

Mic vs. Direct

“ribbon mics…Eddie Kramer even goes as far as to say that “to me, the best guitar mic is the Beyer M160, which I’ve used for 30 years on Hendrix, on Zeppelin, on everybody.”” … “Eddie Kramer’s discussion of his Hendrix sessions reveals a similar preference: “Generally speaking, it was either a U67 or a Beyerdynamic M160, or a combination of both, which I still use today. It might be slightly different, of course, but the basic principle’s the same — a ribbon and a condenser.”” *

— soundonsound.com, Guitar Amp Recording |By Mike Senior.

  • Eddie Kramer (references) … Jimi Hendrix: Are You Experienced?, Axis: Bold As Love, Electric Ladyland, Band Of Gypsys, The Cry Of Love; Led Zeppelin: Led Zeppelin II. — references excerpted from the ‘Guitar Amp Recording’ article.

These are great recordings for me, ‘Hendrix, Zeppelin’, but that was the analog era … (?) Just saying.

Thanks for this article link Steve, yes all miking the amp though not all my favorite recordings/sounds/productions … of course I’m sure not many (overall) are going to share their coveted techniques/secrets.

I’m currently reading “Chasing Sound” by Susan Schmidt Horning, just started, though early on ‘recordists’ had a curtain between them and the artists they were recording to protect their techniques/secrets from being stolen.

Thanks Steve, for the signal levels info list and DI article link/info.

14

There’s an app for that …

boogex cabinet emulator (free).png
boogex cabinet emulator (free).png489×716 230 KB

15

UPDATE: I noticed if I turn my guitar amp up the noise drops significantly even with my computer plugged in. So I recorded my last song this way (not yet released though…need vocals).

I monitored the recording real time using the UCA222 headphones capability with monitor headphones, adjusting the UCA222’s volume as needed (down as I turned the amp up). Again, using the amps external speaker out into one of the two (left, right) inputs of the UCA222, which I then fed into my computer (via the USB) and recorded with Audacity where their was still plenty of headroom for the amp to be even louder.

While playing/recording I was only able to listen to one channel (one side in the headphones) but once on Audacity I was able to seperate the track, one side blank, deleting that, then panning the balance to the middle for the other, resulting in a proper mono track.

I’m still experimenting with high voltage blues, still noncompliant, though changing names, literally, which I usually do when something intermittently intercedes (astrological?..microbiological?..?) as is often the case.

16

This is screaming broken sound cable or open shield to me. You hear that quiet thick…thick…thick…thick back there? That’s the give-away. Normal hum problems don’t have that. The system is picking up trash from every electrical device, amplifier, effects unit and motor in a 20 foot radius.

I’d put a lot of chocolate on either a busted cable or bad connection.

As multiple comments above, it starts going away when you run the computer on batteries, but it never quite vanishes.

I don’t need any more than that. The last time I bought lunch was the first time the band found out I could fix guitar cables.

Also bad connections. Plug and unplug the connections several times and then turn the ones you can 1/4 turn both directions a couple of times.

There is another less likely possibility. Are you working from a big power strip with a lot of sockets, or are you working from multiple wall sockets? Both houses I’ve lived in had wiring errors inside the wall when I moved in.

You can get a cheap socket tester (or maybe borrow one) and check them out.

If you get the two green lights, the socket is probably OK, but if you get the wrong lights, the socket is wrong or damaged and may be a shock hazard.

Koz

17

kozikowski wrote:

This is screaming broken sound cable or open shield to me. You hear that
quiet thick…thick…thick…thick back there? That’s the give-away.
Normal hum problems don’t have that. The system is picking up trash from
every electrical device, amplifier, effects unit and motor in a 20 foot
radius.

I’d put a lot of chocolate on either a busted cable or bad connection.

As multiple comments above, it starts going away when you run the computer
on batteries, but it never quite vanishes.

I don’t need any more than that. The last time I bought lunch was the
first time the band found out I could fix guitar cables.

Also bad connections. Plug and unplug the connections several times and
then turn the ones you can 1/4 turn both directions a couple of times.

There is another less likely possibility. Are you working from a big power
strip with a lot of sockets, or are you working from multiple wall sockets?
Both houses I’ve lived in had wiring errors inside the wall when I
moved in.

You can get a cheap socket tester (or maybe borrow one) and check them out.

If you get the two green lights, the socket is probably OK, but if you get
the wrong lights, the socket is wrong or damaged and may be a shock
hazard.

Koz


Cool. This socket tester is new to me. Might look for it.

18

Thanks for the reply/info Koz and everyone. I borrowed a plug tester and all is good!

QUESTIONS:

  1. What is “chocolate” on cables? … Insulation of some sort to insulate connections? Which I do have some connections going on and they are probably not really insulated (SEE ATTACHED PICTURES - BUT THESE ARE ON MY VOCALS side and the problem is only when I use the guitar amp, the other side per the UCA222’s two RCA channels/input jacks. For the guitar I use one cable: 1/4 in. plug to RCA plug.

  2. I do use a power strip … why would that be a problem (it also tested good with the plug tester)?
    Vocal_channel_connections.JPG
    Vocal_channel_connections_close_up.JPG
    To be clear: when I unplug AC power from my computer (when using guitar amp and DR05 as an interface/mixer for the vocals) and run on battery alone all is instantly clearer, to a degree I would not question.

Other possibility:

In a leaflet additional to the UCA222 manual, it states: “Electro-static charges can interfere with the USB connection. If interference occurs, it is recommended to switch off the MIDI application in your Windows/Mac environment. Then, switch the application back on.”

Q: How do I “switch off the MIDI appliction in [my] Windows environment”? … At my “Device Manager”? … “Sound video and game controllers”? - Right click, Properties, Disable? - Is that it?

I also have numerous entries there (see attached picture), are any of these, or all of these the “MIDI”? — The first four: “NVIDIA High Definition Audio”, seem to be identical, with the same version numbers and dates. Should I Uninstall three of those four?
-device-manger.PNG
I disabled all the NVIDIA audio devices (at Device Manager) which I guess I don’t use anyway because I lost no audio playback ability (I think these were used by the computer’s previous owner who was a big ‘gamer’)… I also disabled the Realtek ‘Recording’ entry in the Sound program since I am using the UCA222.

I also hooked up the UCA222 and disabled it then reenabled it in Device Manager and did the same for the Realtek audio, my sole default playback audio device. I did all this while listening to the UCA222 through headphones, headphones plugged into the UCA222, and the buzzing never ceased and it picks up every computer action I do, clicks, programs going on and off… like you can hear the inside of the computer’s electrical workings, each and every one …

Then I again unplugged the computer and clarity! All buzzing gone, well except what seems like a very, very low normal type noise…

Further:

I played with wiggling and moving cables last recording and was able to get the noise to stop but even when holding perfectly still the noise would again resume after a few seconds as if the computer was deciding, ‘yes, no, I don’t know’ in some kind of repeated fashion.

Here is another view of my recording layout … I decided to use this in my latest video for my new song “The Blues Is Everywhere!” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTyT-ZSx5uY

19

I played with wiggling and moving cables last recording and was able to get the noise to stop but even when holding perfectly still the noise would again resume after a few seconds as if the computer was deciding, ‘yes, no, I don’t know’ in some kind of repeated fashion.

That’s probably the one I worry about most. Having a noise problem that moves is very serious.

Any possibility of using a different computer, even just for a test?

Don’t worry about the chocolate. That’s my version of “I would bet a lot of money (chocolate).”

I need to dip into electrical engineering.

Everybody knows the guitar signal (or whatever you’re playing) goes into the metal piece on the tip. That’s why you can touch that tip and the cabinet sound will go nuts. The tiny black ring is an insulator, but the long metal tube after that isn’t what you think it is. Yes, it’s the protective shield around the guitar sound, but it’s also connected to the cabinet case (underneath the plastic or leather). That means it’s also connected to the round pin in the power plug. No, I’m not kidding.

All the pedals, special effects units, interfaces, etc, have their cabinets and power cords connected to each other through the shields. Normally, all this works OK as long as all the equipment plays by the rules. Enter the computer. You have a USB connection to the computer, right? The square outside of the USB plug is part of that shield. That means the metal parts of the computer are connected to your guitar body.

Already storm clouds.

In general, the computer is fine as long as it’s not connected to anything else. The instant you plug it into the wall, the shielding system has to obey two different masters. The connection from the charger and the connection from the USB system. If the charger is very “affordable” it may not have very good isolation and protection from hum problems. It only has to charge the battery and nothing else… right?

Enter skin oils. Never touch the metal parts of guitar cables. The oils from your hands mess with the electrical connection. So now the music cables between all the parts of the studio have ratty connections.

This is where I’d be on the floor with a voltmeter trying to track down the bad connections. Also see paper towels and Windex or Glass Cleaner. Swab down the metal parts of the plugs and dry them. Plug them in a couple of times and give them a half-turn.

There is no cure for the computer power supply. It will probably never work with your system. I have done recordings where I couldn’t plug the computer into the wall because of sound problems. That’s not a shocker.

This was a voice shoot for an animated movie. There’s no power connection to the Mac and it’s sitting on flannel to keep the metal case from touching anything else.

1000×968 81.5 KB

Any chance of trying a different computer?

Koz

20

Thanks Koz, great info … a voltmeter sounds like a great investment since I sometimes work with electricity at my 9-5 where we use some kind of simple tester sometimes to check to see if a (house) wire is live or not. I’ll research to see if a voltmeter is the same or something better.

I don’t have another computer with as updated an operating system as the one I now use for recording … when I tried Audacity 2.3.1 on my other: Windows 7 rolled back to factory, it did not take … With a window pop up stating I was missing something… which may be a separate problem (?).

I have a collection of past Audacity versions somewhere… and will see if an older version takes and update back ASAP.

Thanks Audacity — coolware,

Ron of Bluesday https://www.soundclick.com/Bluesday