440 TO 432 Temperament change PROBLEM

Hi, would love for help.

as a music producer, I’m looking for a way to export my music at 432hz instead of 440hz.
after days of research, I think I came across some problems with AUDACITY.
please correct me if I’m wrong.

to my understanding, AUDACITY is concert pitch from C4=440Hz to C4=432Hz, but did NOT change the temperament. The software will still be using 12-Tone Equal Temperament, not Pythagorean Temperament (or also popular among 432-composers: “Renold I” and “Just Intonation”).

Do you understand the difference between “432 Tuning” (that includes a Temperament change) and just using A4=432Hz as a concert pitch? For “432 Tuning” you need to temper all 12 tones individually with a different number of cents.
on abltone live u can detune samples by changing the detune, for example, Only the tone A4 changes with approx. -31.67 cents but all other tones change with different amounts of cents, depending on the Temperament used,
in the case of Pythagorean Temperament from -16.2 cents (the tone of F) even up to -37.6 cents (the tone of C), relatively to 12-Tone Equal Temperament.

So to my understanding, Audacity is ONLY changing different concert pitch and did NOT change the temperament which is the goal.

can someone please clarify this subject for me?

can I actually upload a song I rendered in 440hz and get a clean 432hz
which changed by temperament and concert pitch?
OR only a concert pitch?

Thank u in advance

Audacity will change all of the frequencies by the same percentage or the same factor.

You get the same notes, overtones, and harmonics as-if you slow-down playback to change pitch & tempo together.

So you’re saying
1.it’s both the temperament and concert pitch?

2.and if so it probably damages the quality of the WAV file no? ( i upload EDM tracks)

When pitch shifting, Audacity is neither using, or not using 12-Tone Equal Temperament. “Pitch shifting” scales frequencies by a specified ratio. (“Frequency shifting” change frequencies by a specified amount).
Pitch shifting preserves the original temperament of musical intervals because musical intervals are based on ratios. Frequency shifting does not preserve the original temperament.

Example of pitch shifting:

Say that you have recording of two frequencies: 200 Hz and 400 Hz. We say that these frequencies are “one octave” apart because in Western music we define an octave as a frequency ratio of 2:1.

We now “pitch shift” by an arbitrary ration - say 1.4:1.
The frequencies become: 280 Hz and 560 Hz. (1.4 x 200 = 280 and 1.4 x 400 = 560)
Notice that the the higher frequency is still double the (new) lower frequency (2 x 28 = 560).
The “music interval” is retained after pitch shifting.

It is worth noting that in the real world, acoustic instruments are rarely tuned to exactly match Equal Temperament across their entire range. For example, see the “stretch” section about piano tuning in this Wikipedia article: Piano tuning - Wikipedia

It is also worth noting that a single note from an acoustic instrument is not a single frequency contains a near infinite number of different frequencies. The proportions of different frequencies determine the tone of a note, whereas the timbre is determined by both the tone and the way that the tone changes over time. Some of the frequencies within a single note are harmonically related, while some are not.

  • Pitched instruments such as pianos, violins, guitars, clarinets, trumpets etc produce notes where most of the stronger (higher amplitude) frequencies are harmonically related.
  • Non-pitched instruments such as snare drums, castanets, shakers etc produce sound where harmonically related frequencies are not prevalent.
  • Some instruments, such as toms, wood blocks, gongs, heavily distorted guitar etc. lie somewhere between the two, such that some degree of harmonically related frequencies can be heard while a lot of harmonically unrelated frequencies are also present.

It is interesting to note that many instruments are deliberately tuned “slightly off” from the theoretical “in tune” frequencies. I’ve already mentioned piano tuning “stretch”, but also it is common to tune toms so that the upper and lower skins are slightly out of tune with each other. Cylindrical resonator instruments (wind, brass, organs etc.) produce dominant frequencies rooted on the natural harmonics of resonator, but may also have valves / slides / holes that are tuned for (approximately) equal temperament. Fretless string instruments are not tied to any temperament, but are usually tuned such that each string is approximately an equal temperament interval from its neighbour.


Example of Frequency shifting:

Starting again with 2 tones; 200 Hz and 400 Hz.

We now shift the frequencies by an arbitrary “amount”, say 40 Hz.
The frequencies become 240 and 440 Hz (200 + 40 = 240. 400 + 40 = 440).
Notice that the higher frequency is no longer double the lower frequency.
The musical interval is changed by frequency shifting.


Audacity’s “Change Pitch” is a “pitch shifter” (not a “frequency shifter”).

It is a mistake to think that a recording can be “re-tuned” to a different scale by either pitch shifting or frequency shifting. Musical pitch is far more complex and nuanced than simple frequency ratios. If you really want music that is tuned to a non-standard tuning, then tune the instruments as required before recording.

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SO if I understood correctly,

  1. I need to retune before I start a project all my synths to 432hz
    and also my samples using detune of -32 cents?

  2. if I got an acapella from a singer i should also retune it using AUDACITY or Ableton simpler?

  3. last Q : Ablton DAW is rendering in 440, what happens if I first make the hole production like you suggested in 432hz and then export the project in 440hz?
    because again my goal is to stay as much as i can in 432hz.

If possible, it’s best to produce/compose/perform with whatever tuning you want rather than artificially manipulating the recording later. Some real instruments are “difficult” to re-tune (piano) and some instruments may be impossible to re-tune. It’s easy to tune a guitar to 432Hz and a singer can sing with any tuning.

I don’t think so but maybe Seve can clarify that. (I’m not a musician.)

Whatever is easier for you.

If you are starting with the vocal and you can live with a slight tempo change, changing the pitch and tempo together (with the Change Speed effect) it’s “mathematically simpler” and you are less likely to get side-effects (other than the tempo change).\

If the music (instrumental part) is created first and you are recording the vocals, the vocalist can sing-in-tune with whatever you have.

Rendering/exporting doesn’t change the tuning.

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You know what happens when you pitch shift a voice much higher? The voice sounds like a cartoon chipmunk.
You know what happens when you pitch shift a voice much lower? The voice sounds like a mud monster.

Those are extreme examples, but the same thing happens (to a lesser degree) with less extreme pitch shifting.

When a singer sings a bit higher or lower, it still sounds like the same vocalist, just singing higher or lower.

As a musician, I really don’t understand why people want to reduce the sound quality of their music by “re-tuning” it because of a weird and baseless conspiracy theory. Just enjoy the music (preferably live music, because that’s musically the best).

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As a tin-ear music lover I don’t understand either! :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

If you played me the standard-tuned version today and the 432Hz version tomorrow, I’d never know (assuming not audible artifacts from the processing). Most musicians wouldn’t notice either unless they tried to play-along and then they’d notice that their instrument was out-of-tune with the recording.

I probably wouldn’t notice even if the altered file was played immediately after the other…

are you sure about that? so why logic pro gives the option to render in 432 and in Ableton it’s default?

No, I’m not sure. I’ve never used logic or Ableton. But anything like that should be done before rendering. Usually you want to know what you’re getting and what it sounds like before you render the final output.

I’m pretty sure 432Hz isn’t a factory default in Ableton (it’s just not that common) but it could be a user-default setting.

And with audio it may not know the tuning (Audacity doesn’t). With MIDI, of course the notes & tuning are “known” to the software.

One last question and then i’ll sum it up.

so we made it clear that u can produce (if u set everything first to 432hz) at 432hz
and u can detune every sample or vocal to get close to 432hz (because u can’t get a perfect 432hz ever)

so do I actually need or can benefit from audacity?
AND if I can, what for?

There are exactly two reasons to change the pitch of anything.
a) Because the thing sounds too low
b) Because the thing sounds too high

I’m guessing that you believe that there is a third reason, but let’s deal with the elephant in the room: There is nothing magical about tuning frequencies.

I’m not sure what you are saying… In the digital domain it CAN be perfect… It’s a number so it’s not 432.00001, etc.

Eggs are “digital” and you CAN buy EXACTLY a dozen eggs. But milk is “analog” and one “gallon” might have a drop more or a drop less than another “gallon” (or a tiny-tiny fraction of a drop, etc.).

In the physical-analog world it won’t be perfect but of course it’s (usually) close enough for music and good enough for human hearing.

Your soundcard has an oscillator from which the sample rate is derived. (44.1kHz, etc.). No clock is perfect so when you play a 440 or 432Hz tone there will be some variation. Some consumer soundcards are far-enough off to cause trouble for musicians. Otherwise, most people never notice it… And musicians won’t notice either unless they are trying to play-along, and then their correctly-tuned instrument sounds out-of-tune.

Pros often use a master clock (and audio interfaces that support an external master clock). These are very accurate… Sometimes they are atomic clocks with errors in the parts-per-million.

Musical instrument tuning is also “imperfect”, and string instruments “drift” and have to be occasionally re-tuned. Guitars are always tuned before a performance and often between songs

Maybe not. If you are using Ableton, it’s a DAW (digital audio workstation) and overall more powerful than a “simple” audio editor like Audacity.

Audacity might be easier or “better” if you want to do a separate mastering step after you’re done performing/producing & mixing. But Ableton should be good for mastering too, and you may not need, or want, mastering. Usually mastering is done by someone else with “different ears” and different monitors. If you are happy with your production there’s no need for mastering, and you probably don’t want someone else messing with it.

…Most people using Audacity to get 432Hz tuning are not musicians or producers. A rock band can easily tune their guitars & bass to 432Hz and the singer will naturally sing in-tune to the instruments. Drums & cymbals don’t play “notes” so there’s no need to re-tune the drums. But most composers or experienced musicians that understand music theory realize that there is no point to “non-standard” tuning. :wink:

Most people re-tuning with Audacity are “kids” re-tuning their MP3s.

That’s the best answer I’ve got and I thank you for that.

I want to sum up our discussion for other people.

If you want to produce electronic music and get a final result in 432hz u need to understand this first:

  1. U should START your project by setting your synths & instruments to 432hz output instead of 440hz.
    if u need a singer send her an export of your track on 432hz (which will be the case if you’ve done what I just told you).
    If the singer can’t be accurate the singing to your 432 tuning you can use autotune on 432hz or Melodyne and put a tuner to make sure she’s on 432 if not u can try detuning her stems with a 432hz tuner.
    and also consider using AUDACITY ( be aware that you’re using Pitch shifting) it preserves the original temperament of musical intervals because musical intervals are based on ratios.

Audacity’s “Change Pitch” is a “pitch shifter” (not a “frequency shifter”).
It is a mistake to think that a recording can be “re-tuned” to a different scale by either pitch shifting or frequency shifting. Musical pitch is far more complex and nuanced than simple frequency ratios. If you really want music that is tuned to a non-standard tuning, then tune the instruments as required before recording.

If you are starting with the vocal and you can live with a slight tempo change, changing the pitch and tempo together (with the Change Speed effect) it’s “mathematically simpler” and you are less likely to get side-effects (other than the tempo change).

If the music (instrumental part) is created first and you are recording the vocals, the vocalist can sing-in-tune with whatever you have.

OK now before mixing and mastering
You can detune your samples also (not a big deal) .
HOW? Put them on simpler and detune the simpler to -0.32 cents WHY?
If we detune a synth or sample though in “Ableton Live” by -0.32 cents then we are in fact detuning the root note to 432 and it will take the ratio from there to form the rest of the scales/octaves.

2.If your’e a music producer who uses some DAW you probably don’t need AUDACITY.

UNLESS IT’S FOR SPECIFIC VOCAL STEMS LIKE I SAID EARLIER.

I personally think that after export your project you don’w need to put it on AUDACITY to try and get more accurate 432hz cuz it’s nonsense and if you will do what i just told u it’s enough.

Most people using Audacity to get 432Hz tuning are not musicians or producers. A rock band can easily tune their guitars & bass to 432Hz and the singer will naturally sing in-tune to the instruments. Drums & cymbals don’t play “notes” so there’s no need to re-tune the drums. But most composers or experienced musicians that understand music theory realize that there is no point to “non-standard” tuning.

Most people re-tuning with AUDACITY are “kids” re-tuning their MP3s.

IF I MISSED SOMETHING I WOULD LOVE FOR U TO ADD AND ACCURATE MY STATEMENTS.

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