No I mean four text input boxes and four sliders, like a Graphic EQ “reduced interface” with four sliders (the reason being, will a “reduced but still useful” graphic EQ ever be simple enough)? The name of the slider can be what you like.
Then I wondered if the technical details should clarify that.
I take the point, though it’s a fine one. “Reduce Output Level if necessary to prevent distortion” is far better than “Overload Prevention”, thanks. Why not turn that into nouns as we do in most plug-ins and maybe a bit less verbose “Output Level Reduction (for clipping prevention)”? Anyway, up to you, though I think it should include “Output Level Reduction”.
Thanks, I did not know Amplify or Normalize could clip, though the selections I tried did not clip when scaled to 0 dB in those effects.
Yes, bigtime … And so do some others but it does make them look crappy IMO.
OK. Though having taken 1 minute to bass/treble a 35 minute track with prevention set to “no”, but 7 minutes to process with it set to “yes” (plus 5 minutes to redraw the track after the effect finishes) I can see why you were worried. How about “Yes (slower)”?
GA: is the output amplification only applied when needed i.e. you are talking about the “overload prevention”?
S: Yes, it is only applied if necessary.
GA: Then I wondered if the technical details should clarify that.
…
GA: Why not turn that into nouns as we do in most plug-ins and maybe a bit less verbose “Output Level Reduction (for clipping prevention)”?
Yes I can clarify that in the Technical Details, but with the wording “Reduce Output Level if necessary to prevent distortion” I think it is already clear that it is only applied if necessary to prevent distortion.
If the wording is changed to “Output Level Reduction (for clipping prevention)” then I think that it is no longer (as) clear that it is only applied if necessary to prevent distortion.
As a compromise it could be: “Output Level Reduction - if necessary to prevent distortion”, though this looks and reads badly IMO.
I see that turning it into nouns is the convention, but as the original premise is to make it easy to use for new users, I prefer clarity over convention. Ideally the user should be able to understand what the effect does and how to use it without reading the Technical Details, or even without reading the Help.
I’m open to any ideas for alternative wording that is as clear as the current wording.
BTW, the Nyquist interface always adds a colon at the end of the “text-left”, which does not look good if the last character in the “text-left” is a punctuation mark (a close bracket looks similar a sad “smilie” ): and a question mark looks wrong?:
S: What about the Vocal Remover effect? Doesn’t the wording overflow in that also?
GA: Yes, bigtime > > … And so do some others but it does make them look crappy IMO.
I agree. If possible, I think this needs fixing in the Audacity code so that the box can be expanded.
Depending on the characters used there may only be enough space for as few as 8 characters.
At least the text expands when clicked on.
I would expect that if you test on a 10 minute selection, the time taken will be identical whether it is set to Yes or No.
I would also expect that if you try processing a 60 minute selection, processing with Level Reduction enabled will be extremely slow, or even crash.
It all depends on the available RAM. As soon as data swapping from RAM to disk is grinds down to dead slow.
On XP with 512 MB RAM, a 5 minute selection will process at virtually the same speed regardless of whether Level Reduction is enabled or not, but a 15 minute track will seize up for a long time.
On Linux with 3 GB of RAM, a 35 minute selection will process at virtually the same speed, but a 70 minute selection will seize up.
I have added a note to the Technical Details to clarify this:
TECHNICAL DETAILS:
Tone adjustment uses two second-order 'shelf Eq' filters.
The half-gain point of the filters are set to 600 Hz (bass)
and 2 kHz (treble).
Maximum boost/cut is +/-15 dB for all controls.
'Level Reduction' is applied to the sound post filter and is
only applied if the output will otherwise exceed 0 dB.
If the selected data is too large to be read entirely into RAM,
processing will be very slow as data is swapped from RAM to
disk. This is unavoidable in the current implementation of
Nyquist in Audacity and applies to all Nyquist plug-ins that
use a "Normalize" function.
As Nyquist processes audio at 32 bit (float) there is no risk
of distortion being introduced provided that the output level
is set such that the final output level is below 0 dBFS.
Both channels of stereo tracks are amplified equally (linked).
A 10 Hz eight-pole Butterworth high-pass filter is applied
to the entire selection to remove DC off-set and sub-sonic
frequencies.
It’s of course clear from the plug-in interface. Hence I thought it was confusing for the Technical details (above the controls in the .ny file) to suggest by omission that “Output amplification” might always be applied. I think the details are fine now you have changed “Output amplification” to something mentioning “reduction”.
I think “Output Level Reduction (for clipping prevention)” is pretty clear given novices have already got to get used to Amplify and Normalize (which I doubt they will avoid using) with minimal help on the interface. If there is nothing to prevent, nothing will be reduced.
I’m OK with verbs if they give their primary purpose or show exactly what is being done. To me, “Reduce Output Level” does not convey either without reading the next line.
Attached has seven variants and you could mix’n match their two lines as well if you wished. I think any of them are better than what we have now. My first choice is (4) and second choice is (7).
That matches with the built-in effects so I don’t think we need to change that.
Given the space restrictions I think the best we can do is either “Yes (See Help)” or a brief warning in ;info line. Reluctantly, I think I prefer the info line warning (example in the attached). Clipfix has an ;info line warning too, so it’s not indefensible.
Clipping Protection
(normalize to 0 dB if too loud):
Yes, let’s go with that.
I’ve amended the Technical Details and the ‘View Help’ text to match this wording.
Yes, I think that’s the best option.
Rather than referring the user to the ‘View Help’, how about just putting:
NOTE: Setting ‘Clipping Protection’ to ‘Yes’ may crash on long selections
if the computer has insufficient RAM.
(this is more information than currently displayed in ‘View Help’).
Alternatively, (though I prefer the above option),
NOTE: Setting ‘Clipping Protection’ to ‘Yes’ may crash on longer selections.
See ‘Technical Details’ in ‘bass-treble.ny’ file for more information.
bass-treble.ny (3.52 KB) Has this effect become too complicate?
I’ve noticed that this effect has become a lot more complicated since I first wrote it, so I’ve also attached an even easier tone control.
This works in the same way as a tone control on many portable players - No help screen included - This is so simple that ‘how to use’ should be totally obvious for anyone. SimpleToneControl.ny (845 Bytes)
Very simple, yes. Appropriate for Audacity, maybe not. Turning up the bass turns down the treble and vice versa. Not flexible enough IMO. This can’t replace “BassBoost”.
I don’t think the original is “too complicated” at all. The complication (if you want to call it that) is the normalizing option. I think that is covered well in the Help screen.
You’re right though, the “really simple” version could not replace “Bass Boost”, but I think that “Bass/Treble” could.
(it’s just a shame about the Normalizing issue)
So what happens now?
The current version of the Bass/Treble plug-in has all the agreed changes made.
Do we now e-mail the developers and ask for “Bass Boost” to be taken out and “Bass/Treble” put in, or do we raise the question on the QA list, or something else?
I’ve added the ;categories line and changed "32 bit " to “32-bit” in the “Technical details” as I think that is more correct. I changed “RAM” to “memory” in the ;info line to be user-friendly but feel free to change it back if you wish.
Looking at the Help again, I’ve suggested in “CLIPPING PROTECTION” trying to describe the problem and what to do about it as being more useful than just repeating the ;info line. I’ve had to lose ** WARNING ** to do that, but to me it’s worth it. I guess you could have “CAUTION: CLIPPING PROTECTION”:
CLIPPING PROTECTION:
This option automatically lowers the overall
level if necessary to prevent distortion. If used
on long selections it may slow, then crash. If
it's too slow, 'Cancel' to try a shorter section.n
In the “Tips” section I changed to use “Effect > Amplify” rather than “Amplify” for further clarity.
If you disagree with the changes in Clipping Protection, just amend or revert.
As to what happens now, post your final version if you want to amend anything then I guess I will post to -quality Cc to -devel saying I would like to replace Bass Boost with Bass/Treble and take it from there. Others may think it’s OK to have Bass Boost and Bass/Treble or they may say it would be better to add a treble boost to inbuilt “Bass Boost”.
“RAM” vs. “memory” is debatable as some tools in Windows include swap memory when referring to “memory”, but on balance “memory” may be generally more user friendly.
"32 bit " vs. “32-bit” - you know I’d never even considered that I believe you are correct.
<<I’ve had to lose ** WARNING **>>
I think it’s still highlighted enough. If it proves to be a major problem with users, we could remove that option altogether, possibly replacing it with a volume control, or just leave it out. “Bass Boost” does not have any protection against clipping.
I’m happy with your amendments.
I would be happy with that as long as it also allows bass and treble to be reduced. Essentially that would be the same as this plug-in but faster, higher up the Effects menu list, and could possibly include protection against clipping without the memory problem. There is however one other drawback to the “Bass Boost” effect, and that is that if there is any DC off-set, the Bass Boost effect will make it considerably worse. If anyone wants to program a new Bass/Treble (boost/cut) effect, I’d be strongly in favour of it filtering out DC.
Bumping this old thread since it seems to have stalled.
I still prefer Steve’s Bass / Treble plug-in over BassBoost. In fact I never could understand why BassBoost was there at all - it has limited functionality and allows non-sensical values (e.g. +36 dB at 1 Hz).
Personally I would prefer the effect to have only two sliders, one for bass and one for treble.
If I recall correctly, the “clipping protection” was added on Gale’s request, but we don’t have clipping protection on the Audacity Equalization effect or other effects that can cause clipping (such as Phaser and Wahwah) so why do we need it here? It makes the effect more complicated and can cause Audacity to crash if used on very long selections.
Amplification and Normalize are already provided as separate effects so I don’t see why we need to duplicate those effects here, especially as the Amplification and Normalize effects can be used on very long tracks without any problems.
If 32-bit float tracks are being used then even if the output of this tone control goes over 0 dB it will not be clipped and can be amplified back down to 0 dB without damage.
If there were just the bass and treble controls then I don’t think there would be any need for the help screens either (it works just the same as bass and treble on a domestic amplifier).
I’d agree with removing the “clipping protection” as it seems to take 7 times longer to process a selection with it on (Gale’s test further up this thread).
I skimmed through the thread and don’t see that I asked for the clipping protection (unless that was in another thread). I did note that David used to add it. But given the slowness and the crash risk, and it may reduce the chances of acceptance, I don’t mind losing the feature. I think the feature would be worth having if it wasn’t for the Nyquist issue that causes the problems.
Was the amplification modifier such a bad idea (it was safe / no speed penalty wasn’t it)? Some people do ask for amplification modification even in Equalization, so for a rough and ready one stop job it may still be useful in Bass/Treble. Given practice and similar music, you may get to learn what amplification adjustment will leave the levels about the same. As you said when you wrote to the -quality list in May (without arousing any developer interest):
three sliders; one for +/- bass and one for +/- treble and one for overall +/- output level, all with ranges of +/- 15
dB.
I think turnover frequencies suggested by Bill there are going to be heavy going for novices.
On the assumption that people may more likely be trying to increase both bass and treble, you could even default amplification to a negative amount. On the whole I think that is better than having a “compensatory” amplitude adjustment that would prevent clipping but usually leave the level lower.
I guess if you repost to -quality I’d better throw my weight behind it too this time…
I’m very glad this topic re-surfaced, since I missed it the first time around. I’m very much in favor of the simplified Bass/Treble controls, especially as I recall two things: 1) Virtually every guitar amplifier I’ve used, and 2) Gale’s repeated observations in other topics that many Audacity users are not technically inclined. Keep it simple, while making it possible for more-skilled users to make it as complicated as they need!
So, how about “EQ” which defaults to 3 bands?
At any rate, the fact that “Bass Boost” is the only effect of its type always seemed to me as though The Developers couldn’t be bothered to add Treble Boost, or anything along the same lines, before they went on to develop the fully-functional EQ effect. I strongly agree that “Bass Boost” should be dropped.
I may not have recalled correctly - it was a very long time ago.
I don’t think that the clipping protection is a “bad” thing in itself, but not really “necessary” and as you say, given the slowness and the crash risk I don’t think it is worth it.
Thanks for bringing that up again. I do much prefer the “amplification modifier” option to normalizing.
It’s a shame that there is no good way to offer “simple / advanced” alternative interfaces. I’ve just noticed that the old “shelf filter” has had over 1600 downloads: Reducing Bass
The overall gain setting ("amplification modifier) is fine if you know what you’re doing, but I think it would be rare to get it exactly right. Better is to work in 32 bit then use Amplify after any EQ to get the “perfect” level.
So my recommendation would be to tear out the clipping protection and submit it as a replacement for “Bass Boost”.
For those of us with a rudimentary ability to read someone else’s code ( ) it’s easy to add custom turnover frequencies for own own private version.
It would also be possible to include “advanced” sliders that are commented out. For example:
....
;control tgain "Treble Gain (dB)" real "" 0 -15 15
;; TO ENABLE THE BASS FREQUENCY SLIDER, REMOVE ONE SEMI-COLON FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE NEXT LINE
;;control tfreq "Treble Half-Gain Frequency (kHz)" real "" 2 1 10
;control bgain "Bass Gain (dB)" real "" 0 -15 15
;; TO ENABLE THE BASS FREQUENCY SLIDER, REMOVE ONE SEMI-COLON FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE NEXT LINE
;;control bfreq "Bass Half-Gain Frequency (Hz)" real "" 400 20 1000
....
I’m not sure if whbjr is asking for a third “mid range” slider? Reducing mid range is often useful to make audio sound less “seedy”, but then we’ll soon be into a mini-equalizer. I think four sliders is the maximum to be considered (for those who don’t enable any hidden extras. A mid range slider might mean we could not call it “Bass / Treble”.
Sorry for my lack of clarity - I was inspired by the graphic on the Graphic Equalizer - simple Feature Request, which includes a drop-down menu for selecting the number of bands. It shows odd numbers of bands, which is not unusual, except for the “Two-Band EQ” we’re talking about.
In other words, I’m asking for more than one thing, and I’d be happy with either or both:
Bass/Treble controls like a stereo system or guitar amp.
Would it be better to replace “bass boost” with a built-in effect “tone control” rather than a Nyquist version?
I’ve managed to hack together a “Treble control” (+/- 15 dB high shelf filter) and a “Bass control” (+/- 15 dB low shelf filter) using the existing “bass boost” as a starting point.
What I’ve not been able to do is to put them together into one plug-in as I can’t fathom the Wx code - perhaps Edgar could do that?
Also, the code for Normalizing is already available, so that could be added as an option with a check box.