Muted tracks export empty!

[Russ]

This seems to be a new behavior and it cost me quite a bit of time. I habitually record a dozen or so lines at a time, muting each one as I go, so that I can do a batch export; this has worked for a long time. I recently upgraded to 1.3.7 and found to my dismay (only after several recording sessions) that all of my exports were empty! The new behavior seems to be to export mute tracks as 0 seconds long. I cannot imagine why anyone would want to do this, but if it has to be a new behavior, could it please be made a preference?

[waxcylinder]

It's supposed to do that - there was a bug in 1.2.x wherby the mute was not honoured on export - but the developers fixed that for 1.3

I works like that so folks who record multiple tracks can mute some of them prior to export - so that on export only the unmuted tracks are mixed and rendered.

WC

[Russ]

Wait, that doesn't make sense. I can understand if you want to export the combination of tracks without the muted ones (the single export... function). In such a case, it would indeed be annoying if muted tracks were played. But what possible function is there to export multiple empty tracks (export multiple)?

[waxcylinder]

How long are these empty tracks tou get with export multiple? It is posiible to create a second label at exactly the same point as an existing label (and you won't be able to see it!) - this is known to produce empty tracks.

WC

[Russ]

Before export, they have typically been between 5 seconds and 3 minutes. After export, they are all 0 seconds long. I don't use labels. I either name the tracks themselves or use the auto-numbering feature on export.

The behavior is trivially easy to duplicate:
Proper behavior:

1. Record multiple separate tracks
2. Choose 'export multiple'
3. A file is produced for each track, properly

Erroneous behavior:

1. Record multiple separate tracks
2. Mute each track
3. Choose 'export multiple'
4. An empty (0 second) file is produced for each track

Ignoring muted tracks on export makes perfect sense when you are exporting all tracks as a single mix. It makes no sense whatsoever when the tracks are exported as a batch.

[waxcylinder]

Russ,

I have just done some experimenting and agree with your results - but not your conclusion.

I do not believe that it is erroneous behaviour - AND I have made a major learning.

Firstly, I repeat that correct Audacity behaviour is that if a track is muted then it will not shos in the export, it will not be mixed and rendered. I tested this in 1.3.7 and 1.3.5 and in both cases the muted tracks were not moxed and rendered - but they were exported as small non-playable files (you may argue that this is silly behaviour and that no file should be created in such circumstances, rather an error/warning message should be produced - and I would be inclined to agree). I also tested with 1.2.4b (which I still happen to have on this PC) - and as I explained above the mute has no effect on export, muted tracks are mixed and rendered - this was a bug in 1.2 which the developers acknowledged and duly fixed for 1.3.x.

Now to the major learning: I read your posting carefully, particularly the part about not using labels. This led me to scratch my head - for the "normal" documented way of using Export Multiple is to create a label track with labels and then Export Multiple will export each labelled section as a separate music file (WAV, MP3 or whatever). On re-reading your posts I realized that you were probably recording separate Audacity tracks for each segment - either stacked up upon each other in the timeline - or moved by you with the Time Shift tool to line them up one after the other, right?

Accordingly I set up a test recording three short tracks, each starting at timeline = zero. Normally if one was using multitrack recording you would expect just to do a simple Export to mix and render the three tracks together. And I did not create a label track at all. I then did an Export Multiple as WAV - and surprise, surprise I got three separate WAV files produced one for each track.

Now this may not seem startling to you - but it startled me and will undoubtedly startle some other folks. For the behaviour exhibted there is one that is desired by many folks - those who do multi-track recording have long wanted an Audacity mechanism to export each track separately to individual WAV files. Indeed it is the subject of a much requested Audacity feature request.

What we advised foks to do who wanted to do this was to mute all the tracks bar one, do the export - then mut that track and un-mute the next and export and so on - somewhat tedious.

I have certainly never seen this documented in the manuals (and I have been and am a proof-reader for the documentation - so I've had a v. thorough read). I will email the developers to see if they think that this useful "feature" is expected behaviour or not - and if it's not expected behaviour I'd like to request that it be retained in the software.

Thanks for your inputs on this,
WC

[Gale Andrews]

Russ, thanks for pointing out your experience. 1.3.7 has a warning for Export and Export Selection if all the tracks are muted, and prevents you exporting. There is no warning with Export Multiple if all (or any) tracks are muted. In fact in 1.3.8, Export Multiple has a new dialogue confirming the names of files successfully exported, and it reports that the muted tracks have been successfully exported although they are null files. We'll have to think about this. I think we need the same warning as single export if all files are muted. If possible, I think the confirmation dialogue should report that some tracks were muted and so files were not exported (and delete the null files or not create them).

I don't think export multiple should disregard mute state and export all tracks anyway. People might want the convenience of a multiple export of each unmuted track for various purposes.

Most people doing multi-tracking will (indeed, should) be wanting at some stage to listen to all tracks together before exporting either the mix or single tracks, and if they are used to mixing-desk behaviour will know that muted files won't be in the mix. I agree those with other backgrounds coming from Audacity 1.2/pre-Audacity 1.3.5 may get an unexpected surprise with either single or multiple export. I don't think having a warning before you do any kind of export with a muted track will be acceptable to the majority of the developers, so education some other way will be needed.

Peter, have you tried the latest 1.3.8 development build for behaviour when you have more than one label at the same point? You should be able to see at least three labels at the same point without expanding the label track, and the last of the simultaneous labels should produce a valid file. The preceding simultaneous labels will just produce a null file. I think that is probably good enough behaviour in that circumstance.

I don't understand the long-wanted request to simultaneously export single tracks of a multi-track project as individual files (that is, simultaneously export single waveforms having their own track panels). That is what Export Multiple (splitting by tracks) is for. You can also export selected tracks of a multi-track project with Export Selection, multiple tracks being mixed together (so this is possible even in 1.2 where you can't use mute to determine export). There is no mixing and rendering if doing Export Multiple split by tracks, and never has been. Maybe you are getting confused by what happens if you have multiple tracks and a label track, and export multiple split by label? In that case you get a multiple export of files split at the label point, each file containing a mix of the unmuted tracks relevant to the label position.

If there are requests on our Feature Requests page that ask for simultaneous export of multiple tracks to separate files (I can't see any), please remove them.

Thanks

Gale

[waxcylinder]

I don't understand the long-wanted request to simultaneously export single tracks of a multi-track project as individual files (that is, simultaneously export single waveforms having their own track panels). That is what Export Multiple (splitting by tracks) is for. You can also export selected tracks of a multi-track project with Export Selection, multiple tracks being mixed together (so this is possible even in 1.2 where you can't use mute to determine export). There is no mixing and rendering if doing Export Multiple split by tracks, and never has been. Maybe you are getting confused by what happens if you have multiple tracks and a label track, and export multiple split by label? In that case you get a multiple export of files split at the label point, each file containing a mix of the unmuted tracks relevant to the label position.

Gale,

actually the FR is sitting in the Pending Feature Requests page on the Wiki awaiting triage review. Copy of text below:

Importing / Exporting multiple tracks: There are many situations where it would be useful to be able to import or export more than one track/file at a time. For example; (1) Adjusting the levels of several tracks so that they will sound the same loudness on a CD - (2) Backing up tracks from a multi-track project - (3) Importing tracks from a multi-track recorder - (4) Importing tracks recorded in other multi-track software - (5)Concatenating multiple audio clips into a single file - (6)Safely transporting projects to other computers (that may or may not be using Audacity). (Plus 1 vote)
To this end the following features would be useful:
1) Import multiple files with option of (a) importing end-to-end on the same track, or (b) each onto its own track.
2) Exporting multiple tracks with the option of (a) end-to-end joining into one file (with cue sheet), or (b) each to its own file.

Apart from this specific documentation of the FRs, this topic has been discussed in several other threads over time. One common application is when folks want to share/work cooperatively on multi-track projects. In that case it is not at all easy to email an Audacity project (or even bundle it up on a data CD for snail-mail posting or sneaker-net) and especially not in such a manner that the person at the receiving end has a decent chance of opening up the project. Hence the ability to export a set of tracks as separate WAV files and then subsequently to re-import them elsewhere is seen as a valuable piece of functionality by folks who record their own mult-track music.

WC

P.S. Gale, I will try to find some time to test the multi-labelling in 1.3.8

[Gale Andrews]

I don't understand the long-wanted request to simultaneously export single tracks of a multi-track project as individual files (that is, simultaneously export single waveforms having their own track panels). That is what Export Multiple (splitting by tracks) is for...

Actually the FR is sitting in the Pending Feature Requests page on the Wiki awaiting triage review. Copy of text below:

...There are many situations where it would be useful to be able to import or export more than one track/file at a time...
To this end the following features would be useful:
1) Import multiple files with option of (a) importing end-to-end on the same track, or (b) each onto its own track.
2) Exporting multiple tracks with the option of (a) end-to-end joining into one file (with cue sheet), or (b) each to its own file.

We can already import multiple files to their own track and export multiple tracks to their own file. "Import multiple files to a single track, joined end-to-end with labels containing their filenames" is already on Feature Requests (3 votes) so we can add the two (?) you refer to. If people have multiple tracks on screen and they want to export as an end-to-end file then they would use the "Automatically join tracks end to end: New option under Project > Align Tracks" feature that is already on Feature Requests. Cue sheet support and how to generate data that goes into it is another issue (again, already on Feature Requests).

Apart from this specific documentation of the FRs, this topic has been discussed in several other threads over time. One common application is when folks want to share/work cooperatively on multi-track projects. In that case it is not at all easy to email an Audacity project (or even bundle it up on a data CD for snail-mail posting or sneaker-net) and especially not in such a manner that the person at the receiving end has a decent chance of opening up the project...

Then they should consider "File > Save Compressed Copy of Project" in 1.3.7 as an alternative to the already existing Export Multiple function (splitting by track). Only requests for more "revolutionary" project structures such as an "all-in-one" project file with no explicit data folder are feature requests.


Gale