Disallow adjusting an envelope inflection point ...

[Gale Andrews]

I didn't suggest "not visibly creating" the point when you click.

I know that, but since everyone is beefing about Envelope Tool I reserve the right to add my own beefs.

I just suggested that you be required to click and release to create it, and then click it again to adjust it.

I disagree with that as a default, but agree you should be able to do that.

I'm not sure why it is that Audacity is so sensitive to this -- I don't think this happens to me when editing envelopes in Audition CS5.5. for example, or in MixMeister 6

Does that mean those tools allow you to drag a point while creating it?

Steve tells me that I'm not alone; it happens to lots of people.

The main complaint by far is about how hard it is to create a 100% envelope point. But I think a lot of those folk have not realised that you can create a point at the required value by clicking there.

Perhaps applying a mickey scale factor to the drag instead, so that it's adjustable, but much more slowly? Or a delay: the drag is disabled after the creation for 500ms?

Perhaps - if those other tools allow simultaneous create and drag there must be a reason this is harder in Audacity.

An alternative would be not to move the pointing device when you left-click

I'll go out of my way not to be annoyed by that, but it's a pretty silly thing to say. Of *course* I'm not trying to move the pointing device; that's the entire point here.

I don't think it's that silly. If I use my actual mouse (cheapo optical) I can grip the edges of the mouse and force it not to move when clicking.


Gale

[steve]

and Steve tells me that I'm not alone; it happens to lots of people.

You're misquoting me.
I said that "I find it [the envelope tool] fiddly".

[Baylink]

I didn't suggest "not visibly creating" the point when you click.

I know that, but since everyone is beefing about Envelope Tool I reserve the right to add my own beefs.

Ah, sorry; you cornered too fast for me.

I just suggested that you be required to click and release to create it, and then click it again to adjust it.

I disagree with that as a default, but agree you should be able to do that.

I'm not sure why it is that Audacity is so sensitive to this -- I don't think this happens to me when editing envelopes in Audition CS5.5. for example, or in MixMeister 6

Does that mean those tools allow you to drag a point while creating it?

You know, I don't know. I suspect it might be that both of them, as I prefer, do *not*, but both are on a Windows laptop with a bad keyboard.

Steve tells me that I'm not alone; it happens to lots of people.

The main complaint by far is about how hard it is to create a 100% envelope point. But I think a lot of those folk have not realised that you can create a point at the required value by clicking there.

Steve notes that I overgeneralized his comment; my apologies.

For the record, "you can create a new point that is not on the line" is actually probably what I'm complaining about I would not expect to be able to create a new control point which was *not on the existing envelope curve*.

An alternative would be not to move the pointing device when you left-click

I'll go out of my way not to be annoyed by that, but it's a pretty silly thing to say. Of *course* I'm not trying to move the pointing device; that's the entire point here.

I don't think it's that silly. If I use my actual mouse (cheapo optical) I can grip the edges of the mouse and force it not to move when clicking.

Well, ok, but the implication is that I was not already *trying* not to move it.

The problem isn't that I can't avoid moving the mouse, the problem is that I'm required to *try*.

IMHO.

[Gale Andrews]

An alternative would be not to move the pointing device when you left-click

I'll go out of my way not to be annoyed by that, but it's a pretty silly thing to say. Of *course* I'm not trying to move the pointing device; that's the entire point here.

I don't think it's that silly. If I use my actual mouse (cheapo optical) I can grip the edges of the mouse and force it not to move when clicking.

Well, ok, but the implication is that I was not already *trying* not to move it.

The problem isn't that I can't avoid moving the mouse, the problem is that I'm required to *try*.

IMHO.

The implication was not that you weren't already trying, but that you could try using a less sensitive mouse (and definitely, not a trackpad). Still, your "vote" and Bill's will be counted.

Gale

[Baylink]

Thank you.

I'll try to test MixMeister and Audition to see what they do different.

[steve]

I tend to grab the top line envelope point (unless I'm wanting to move the envelope "up").
When doing so, I usually find that I click a bit too low, so the envelope point jumps down a little. I don't find that to be a major problem, because 99% of the time I want to move the envelope point down - that is the reason that I clicked on the top envelope line.

The time that this little "jump" is inconvenient, is when adding the first control point to the audio clip.
I don't personally find that too much of a problem because I am now familiar with that, so I automatically compensate by nudging it up a little in the same mouse gesture. However, I do agree with Baylink that it is sub-optimal.

1) One possible "new feature" to improve this would be:
Adding the FIRST envelope point in an audio clip is always at 0 dB. That means that setting the first envelope point to less than 0 dB is a two click action (as per Baylink's suggestion). For other control points in that clip, it is not an issue because I WANT to move the position (otherwise I would not be setting a control point).



2) A different "new feature" comes from looking at why that first control point tends to be nudged down.
Closely examining what I am doing with the mouse, I see that if I'm aiming for the lower 0dB line, or the upper 0 dB line of a track that is not the first track, then I need to avoid clicking the edge of the track (adjust track height).

In some other audio programs, that is not a problem because the track height cannot be adjusted with the Envelope tool.
There are pros and cons to whether the Envelope tool should be allowed to adjust the track height.
For the Envelope tool, the unmodified behaviour could be that a click on the edge of the track creates an envelope point at 0 dB.

To mitigate the loss of track height dragging with the Envelope tool, that could become a "modified" click action. That is, to drag the height of the track with the envelope tool (clearly a secondary use of the pointer when using the Envelope tool) requires pressing a modifier key, such as Ctrl+Click. A Status bar message could appear when the Envelope tool is over the edge of the track "Ctrl to drag track height".


Other than this issue for the first envelope point, clicking in the wrong place is not something that I think that software can address, though I would like their to be keyboard control of envelope points so that envelopes become accessible for non-mouse users.

[Gale Andrews]

Adding the FIRST envelope point in an audio clip is always at 0 dB. That means that setting the first envelope point to less than 0 dB is a two click action

Do you mean that if you create a clip by e.g. adding a split line then add an envelope point to a resulting clip that has no envelope point, then that point will be fixed at 0 dB? That may be OK for a track, it seems restrictive for a clip. But from the OP's description I think they want all points fixed.

2) A different "new feature" comes from looking at why that first control point tends to be nudged down. [...] to drag the height of the track with the envelope tool (clearly a secondary use of the pointer when using the Envelope tool) requires pressing a modifier key, such as Ctrl+Click. A Status bar message could appear when the Envelope tool is over the edge of the track "Ctrl to drag track height".

That seems a reasonable idea, but most people who ask for a way to click and not adjust the point want to use a modifier. If so, a modifier to drag track height would be another modifier for user to remember.

None of this is an issue with a keypad mouse It is trivial to click on the top envelope line and set the point without changing the envelope, and impossible to make the click drag the point.

I would like their to be keyboard control of envelope points so that envelopes become accessible for non-mouse users.

Definitely. Would that best be done by a separate Envelope Editor similar to Labels Editor? But sighted users might find it useful to right-click the point then use a text box to set the amplitude.

Gale

[steve]

Do you mean that if you create a clip by e.g. adding a split line then add an envelope point to a resulting clip that has no envelope point, then that point will be fixed at 0 dB? That may be OK for a track, it seems restrictive for a clip.

I mean that for any audio clip (could be a complete track or a short clip that is separated by white-space),
IF the clip has no envelope control points, then the first control point added will be at 0 dB.
AFTER creating the control point, it may be moved in the normal way.

In practice this would mean that for a new track with no envelope points, to create an envelope point at, say 0.7 (linear):
1) With the Envelope tool, click on the track. (creates an envelope point at amplitude = 1.0, time = time position of the click.
2) Release the left mouse button.
3) Click and drag the control point down to 0.7.

Some users will find this a minor inconvenience, but it only applies to the first envelope point in the track. Note that splitting a track automatically creates an envelope point at 0 dB at the split position, so the extra mouse click will not be required in the case of a track with (lots of) split lines.

But from the OP's description I think they want all points fixed.

I know, but I agree with your previous comment that that would be hugely unpopular with many users.

That seems a reasonable idea, but most people who ask for a way to click and not adjust the point want to use a modifier. If so, a modifier to drag track height would be another modifier for user to remember.

We have two types of action here:
1) As now, click and drag is one action.
2) As proposed by Baylink, adding a control point is one action. Dragging a control point is a separate action.

To satisfy (2) we could use a modifier key for either:
a) adding a control point without changing the envelope.
b) dragging a control point.
We would not need (a) AND (b).

Of the a/b choices, I think that (a) is preferable because:
* Users that are familiar with the current behaviour need do nothing different - click and drag without a modifier still works.
* Users such as Baylink just need to press the modifier key when the add a point and it will be added without moving.

Would that best be done by a separate Envelope Editor similar to Labels Editor?

That is one possibility.

Another is to give control points "selectedness". That is, a control point can be in a "selected" state (without left click on it). When selected, the cursor keys could move the control point up/down/left/right.

I expect there are other solutions - it requires some though

[Baylink]

For the record, I would be fine with "modifier-key requires that you click to add a new point *on* the current curve, not off of it" (which is, I think, the specific point at hand.

My particular use case, as I alluded to above, is ducking music beds for VO, in which case the envelope is at 100% everywhere *except* where there's adjacent voice, in which case you add *four* control points, and pull the envelope down between the center pair.

In fact, I'm pretty sure at least one of the programs I use does it that way: if you grab an envelope line *between two points* and drag, both points move the direction you dragged, and the adjacent segments stretch as necessary.

[Gale Andrews]

My particular use case, as I alluded to above, is ducking music beds for VO

Have you tried Auto Duck?

Gale