Win7: MME /vs/ Windows DirectSound?

[hellosailor]

I took a break for a while, upgraded from Vista to a clean Win7 installation, still using Audacity 2.0.2 and a Behringer USB input from the tape deck. And hoping this change of OS gets rid of the mysterious noises I'd been getting no matter what I tried under Vista.

Now I see Audacity's preferences gives me a choice of two recording "hosts", WIndows DirectSound which appears to be the native USB audio, or "MME". And the volume on the DirectSound is incredible, with the Win7 input level set around 5 I still need to back down the level in Audacity below 0.1!

Should I assume this is normal with Win7 and stick to the DirectSound USB choice?

Anything else a latecomer to Win7 should be aware of for Audacity?

--Red

[steve]

See this post: http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic ... 51#p122251

[polkat]

I have Win 7 64 bit on a pretty fast machine using the latest Audacity. I find that MME gives me better performance (and somewhat better sound) over Direct Sound. Of course I had to tweak the latency when I first installed it, but it's fine and I see no reason to change. Am I missing something?

[hellosailor]

Thanks, Steve. that post of Gale's makes me think DirectSound is the way to go.

Problem with this is the volume. I've got the control panel settings configured for a "mic" volume of 3, on a scale of 1-100, and in Audacity I'm still seeing clipping with the mic level set below 0.1. Reading the FAQ, I see I can double-click (I won't call that intuitive) to get a pop-up window and dial that in, but there's no other way to get better granularity out of the input volume, than to pop a window open and closed?

I'm just leary of setting the control panel volume level so close to zero. There's no problem, no loss of anything, if I push that down to something insane like a "1" ?

And, if I have the Audacity monitor set to "linear" so it is reading in tenths up to 1.0, does that correlate to the mixer settings? i.e. if I'm showing maximum input levels on the monitor peaked at .7, and my input is set to .5, does that mean I could raise the input level two or three tenths, so I'm recording with a peak just below 1.0?

[waxcylinder]

I use Windows Direct Sound on my W7 laptop - when I use it to record streaming audio I too find that I have to crank down both the mic and the spejer levels a long way in order to get a sensible input signal level peaking at 50%/-6dB. This seems to have no impact on the quality of the recorded sound.

I chose WDS over MME after some discussions with Gale - I chose it not for its allegedly superior latency (I don't need to take account of that for LP and off-air capture) but as it was the more modern implementation from Microsoft.

WC

[hellosailor]

WDS over MME, right with you on that. I kept reading in the FAQs and latency is a total non-issue for "straight" recording from a single source, as opposed to mixing.

I think I'm down to "1" on the 1-100 scale in Windows, and something like 0.65 on the input slider in Audacity.

Incredible to think a "simple" software change has a 100x effect on the volume.
I suppose that's like complaining that whenever my dog sings the star spangled banner, he's off key.

Good boy. Cookie?!

[Gale Andrews]

WIndows DirectSound which appears to be the native USB audio

WDS is not the Behringer USB, and MME the onboard sound. WDS and MME should be able to access both devices.

Thanks, Steve. that post of Gale's makes me think DirectSound is the way to go.

Problem with this is the volume. I've got the control panel settings configured for a "mic" volume of 3, on a scale of 1-100, and in Audacity I'm still seeing clipping with the mic level set below 0.1. Reading the FAQ, I see I can double-click (I won't call that intuitive) to get a pop-up window and dial that in, but there's no other way to get better granularity out of the input volume, than to pop a window open and closed?

I have not heard before that WDS had higher levels than MME (I have not experienced it on different Vista or Windows 7 or Windows 8 systems). When you talk about adjusting the mic slider is this for the Behringer or the built-in sound, or both?

If it affects built-in sound, have you already looked into whether you have the best drivers for the sound device ( http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Updat ... ce_Drivers) ?

Really, the Audacity input slider and the Windows slider "should" be moving in tandem for the same input device (that is, move one slider and the other moves, so they are both at the same volume). If that is not the case, the Audacity input slider is supposed to "grey out" so you have to use the Windows slider instead.

You can get reasonable granularity using the mouse to drag the volume sliders - the problem is just that the tooltip rounds the volume to one decimal place. To get more control, hold SHIFT while dragging. This applies to the Track Control Panel sliders too. You'll see you can drag the slider much more slowly (but there is a quirk that the mouse pointer pulls away from the slider).

The 1 to 100 Windows granularity could be specious (and the Audacity five decimal places granularity in the dialogue box almost certainly is specious, assuming the Audacity and Windows sliders are moving in tandem). It's up to the sound device what granularity it actually supports.

if I have the Audacity monitor set to "linear" so it is reading in tenths up to 1.0, does that correlate to the mixer settings? i.e. if I'm showing maximum input levels on the monitor peaked at .7, and my input is set to .5, does that mean I could raise the input level two or three tenths, so I'm recording with a peak just below 1.0?

I don't think you can draw any direct conclusions at all if the Audacity slider and Windows slider are at variance.

If they were not at variance, a slider setting of 0.5 doesn't mean you will record at 0.5 on Meter Toolbar, or 1.0 means you record at 1.0 on the meter.

It "should" mean (I think) that reducing the input slider from 1.0 to 0.5 will halve the input level from whatever level it was at. So if 1.0 on the slider was achieving 0.5 (or -6 dB) on the meter, 0.5 on the slider should achieve 0.25 (or -12 dB) on the meter.

@Peter - WDS in my experience doesn't usually have (much) less latency than MME on Windows Vista or later, because on those versions of Windows, MME and WDS are both emulated. On XP, WDS has more direct access to the hardware than MME does (as in "Direct" in its name), so should be faster than MME.


Gale

[Gale Andrews]

I have Win 7 64 bit on a pretty fast machine using the latest Audacity. I find that MME gives me better performance (and somewhat better sound) over Direct Sound. Of course I had to tweak the latency when I first installed it, but it's fine and I see no reason to change. Am I missing something?

if you choose Windows Direct Sound (WDS) and you have both "exclusive mode" boxes checked in Windows, Audacity should be able to request the sample rate (as set in Project Rate bottom left) direct from the device, without Windows intervening to do resampling (which it would under MME if you choose a rate the sound device does not support).

This does mean though, that if you do request a rate not supported by the sound device, you could get bad sound or speed problems.

This is usually more of a problem with external interface devices (which may only support a few rates) than built-in sound devices.

This comment about Exclusive Mode only applies to Windows Vista and later. It's complex but you can read more about it here:
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Windo ... mple_rates .

MME is generally more compatible than WDS, even on Vista or later, which is why it's default.


Gale

[hellosailor]

Hi Gale.

>> WIndows DirectSound which appears to be the native USB audio
>>>WDS is not the Behringer USB, ...
When I said "native USB audio" I meant native to Windows7. Not device-specific to the Berhringer, just that the path/drivers/subsystem seem to be the new default for USB audio in Win7.

>>I have not heard before that WDS had higher levels than MME (I have not experienced it on different Vista or Windows 7 or Windows 8 systems). When you talk about adjusting the mic slider is this for the Behringer or the built-in sound, or both?
This is for adjusting the microphone slider in the "Levels" tab for the mic in the Control Panel. Sound, Recording, Two "microphone" items are listed. One for the Soundmax integrated digital HD audio, the other saying "USB Audio CODEC" so again, I don't think either one is referring to the Behringer as hardware so much as they are referring to the audio path in Win7. One using the native USB codec, the other using presumably the USB channeled through the older audio routines. Either device WILL work depending on what settings are made in Audacity, there's just a huge difference in the volume they produce.

>>If it affects built-in sound, have you already looked into whether you have the best drivers for the sound device ( http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Updat ... ce_Drivers) ?
This is a new installation, clean installation and total update of everything, about a month old now. I haven't looked at the wiki docs since "everything" is theoretically up to date.

>>Really, the Audacity input slider and the Windows slider "should" be moving in tandem for the same input device
Well, neither of the Windows devices would allow for a level setting below "one".<G>

>>You can get reasonable granularity using the mouse to drag the volume sliders - the problem is just that the tooltip rounds the volume to one decimal place. To get more control, hold SHIFT while dragging.
Thanks. I did get that from the FAQ after browsing around the different entries. hadn't seen it before because I was looking for "volume" (no entry) rather than "level" etc. Actually I'm doubleclicking the slider so I can put in a numerical input and that's working nicely, although I wish there was some way I could see just how much clipping was occurring, rather than guess at how much to lower the input to stop it.

>>It's up to the sound device what granularity it actually supports.
Well...nothing references the device itself as hardware, really. I think in this case it is a question of which audio subsystem is being used (i.e. the USB codec with or without the old emulation layer on top of it?) because nothing is actually adjusting the Behringer, the volume adjustment is happening in the drivers, which are part of Win7 AFAIK. I could easily be wrong about that I'm just going by appearances.

[Gale Andrews]

Two "microphone" items are listed. One for the Soundmax integrated digital HD audio, the other saying "USB Audio CODEC" so again, I don't think either one is referring to the Behringer as hardware so much as they are referring to the audio path in Win7. One using the native USB codec, the other using presumably the USB channeled through the older audio routines.

I don't think the OS presents the devices any differently, because it has no idea what API the recording device is going to call. USB Audio CODEC must be the Behringer if that is the only USB device connected.

some way I could see just how much clipping was occurring, rather than guess at how much to lower the input to stop it.

Are you asking for the Audacity meters to represent audio above 0 dB?

I think in this case it is a question of which audio subsystem is being used (i.e. the USB codec with or without the old emulation layer on top of it?)

Both WDS and MME are emulated on Windows 7; those are the only choices Audacity has until it supports WASAPI.


Gale