Mute/Solo buttons ignored by Mix and Render

[steve]

The mute/solo buttons are ignored when using "Mix and Render" or "Ctrl+SHIFT+M".
This was also the case in Audacity 1.2 (Quick Mix), but I still think it is wrong.

[bgravato]

Somewhat related to this matter, have you noticed that you can select mute and solo at the same time for the same track? In this case solo supersedes, but I think the most correct would be either:
1) when one button is selected and the other is pressed the first is deselected automatically
2) when none is selected and one is pressed the other become greyed out so it can't be pressed while the first is selected

Personally I prefer approach 1.

[steve]

have you noticed that you can select mute and solo at the same time for the same track?

That depends on what you have set in "Edit menu > Preferences > Tracks"
Try setting it to "Simple".

Personally I think that "Simple" and "Standard" are mis-named. The "Simple" behaviour seems to me to be closer to what would normally be expected, and in relation to other software and hardware appears to be the more normal behaviour than the "standard" setting.

[waxcylinder]

Well I never knew that - this is me writing it down.

WC

[steve]

The mute/solo buttons are ignored when using "Mix and Render" or "Ctrl+SHIFT+M".
This was also the case in Audacity 1.2 (Quick Mix), but I still think it is wrong.

I vaguely recall a discussion about this, but I can't find it now. (anyone else recall seeing anything about this?)

As far as I'm aware this is not classed as a bug.
Assuming that is the case, and it is the intended behavior, then personally I think it should be changed as it is counterintuitive and inconsistent with mixing when exporting.
If a track is muted, then it is reasonable to expect that rendering it will produce silence. This does not happen on Linux. Could someone check other platforms?

[billw58]

The manual says:

This command mixes all of the selected tracks down to a single mono or stereo track and simultaneously applies all real-time transformations for the track, such as gain, panning, or resampling.

Your tracks are implicitly mixed whenever you hit the Play button on the Control Toolbar and whenever you select Export. This command "fixes" that mix by rendering the mix to a new track and deleting all the tracks that were selected.

The first statement is correct - only the selected tracks are mixed. This is useful as it allows you to create a submix simply by selecting the tracks, without worrying about muting the tracks you don't want included in the submix.

The second sentence of the second paragraph is misleading - mute and solo apply when listening (the "implicit" mix) and when exporting.

As for the Solo button behaviour, the standard on hardware mixing consoles is to be able to solo several channels at once. Thus this is the "standard" setting. The "simple" setting is useful, for example, if you want to A/B two tracks.

When the preference is "Standard" you can have the Mute and Solo buttons down simultaneously on a track, but Solo takes precendence. The Mute button is "down" but not "lit". When you release the Solo button, the Mute button "lights".

In this image, on the left Solo and Mute are both down, but Solo is active. On the right is the result of releasing the Solo button.

SoloVsMuteStandard.png (16.57 KiB) Viewed 2672 times

-- Bill

[steve]

As for the Solo button behaviour, the standard on hardware mixing consoles is to be able to solo several channels at once. Thus this is the "standard" setting.

Yes, that's a reasonable explanation. Not really a big deal as it's "set it an d forget it".

The more important issue is that solo and mute are ignored by Mix and Render.

The manual says: "This command mixes all of the selected tracks down to a single mono or stereo track and simultaneously applies all real-time transformations for the track, such as gain, panning, or resampling."

Doesn't "simultaneously applies all real-time transformations for the track, such as gain, panning, or resampling" imply that solo/mute will be applied?

This is useful as it allows you to create a submix simply by selecting the tracks,

Agreed.

without worrying about muting the tracks you don't want included in the submix.

Disagree.
An easy mistake is selecting all tracks and mixing them down to a single track and producing a mix that sounds totally different to what it sounded like when it was played because the selection includes muted tracks.

The argument that it is easier to just select the tracks that you want in the mix and solo/mute buttons are ignored could also be applied to the mix that occurs with Export/Export Selection, except that Export/Export Selection do not work that way. IMHO Export/Export Selection do the "right" thing and Mix and Render should do the same.

The manual says:
"....
Your tracks are implicitly mixed whenever you hit the Play button on the Control Toolbar and whenever you select Export."

I don't find that misleading.
If I'm mixing down with a hardware mixer, muting a track has the same effect as turning the fader all the way down.
That's what happens when Audacity plays or Exports.

What I find strange, and the more I think about it the stranger it seems, is that "Mix and Render" does something different from the mix that occurs when using Play or Export or Export Selection. In hardware terms this is a pre-mute post-fader mix (weird).

[billw58]

The more important issue is that solo and mute are ignored by Mix and Render.

The manual says: "This command mixes all of the selected tracks down to a single mono or stereo track and simultaneously applies all real-time transformations for the track, such as gain, panning, or resampling."

Doesn't "simultaneously applies all real-time transformations for the track, such as gain, panning, or resampling" imply that solo/mute will be applied?

I'd argue that mute and solo are not "transformations".

This is useful as it allows you to create a submix simply by selecting the tracks,

Agreed.

without worrying about muting the tracks you don't want included in the submix.

Disagree.
An easy mistake is selecting all tracks and mixing them down to a single track and producing a mix that sounds totally different to what it sounded like when it was played because the selection includes muted tracks.

The argument that it is easier to just select the tracks that you want in the mix and solo/mute buttons are ignored could also be applied to the mix that occurs with Export/Export Selection, except that Export/Export Selection do not work that way. IMHO Export/Export Selection do the "right" thing and Mix and Render should do the same.

I wasn't saying I thought it was right, I was inferring the rationale behind the behaviour.

The manual says:
"....
Your tracks are implicitly mixed whenever you hit the Play button on the Control Toolbar and whenever you select Export."

I don't find that misleading.
If I'm mixing down with a hardware mixer, muting a track has the same effect as turning the fader all the way down.
That's what happens when Audacity plays or Exports.

What I find strange, and the more I think about it the stranger it seems, is that "Mix and Render" does something different from the mix that occurs when using Play or Export or Export Selection. In hardware terms this is a pre-mute post-fader mix (weird).

What I thought was misleading was what follows:
"Your tracks are implicitly mixed whenever you hit the Play button on the Control Toolbar and whenever you select Export. This command "fixes" that mix by rendering the mix to a new track and deleting all the tracks that were selected.". It doesn't "fix" that mix since it ignores the Mute and Solo buttons.

I agree that the fact that Mix and Render produces a different result to what you hear with Play or Export is potentially confusing. But in one respect it has to produce a different result. You don't usually want to Mix and Render all the tracks - only a selected few. In one sense, including Soloed/Muted tracks in a Mix and Render is user error. Perhaps a warning when this is the case?

-- Bill

[steve]

I'd argue that mute and solo are not "transformations".

but it's certainly open to more than one interpretation.

I wasn't saying I thought it was right

I thought that would probably be the case Bill. Can I press you on your opinion?

This command "fixes" that mix by rendering the mix to a new track and deleting all the tracks that were selected.". It doesn't "fix" that mix since it ignores the Mute and Solo buttons.

Completely agree.

You don't usually want to Mix and Render all the tracks - only a selected few.

I think it depends on what sort of work you are doing with Audacity. I regularly want to mix down all (or most) tracks onto a new track.

• Mixing down to a new track has a big advantage of allowing the mix to be correctly normalised before Exporting.
• It also the mix to be maximised (peak limited) before Exporting.
• Mixing to a new track with Ctrl+SHIFT+M allows the mix to be rendered, normalised, trimmed, and played without destroying the component audio clips. This is very useful if the client changes their mind about what they want. By soloing the mix track they can hear the "final" mix, and if they want any changes made the mix track can be deleted or muted and the originating tracks edited to produce a new mix.

[billw58]

Yes, there are many situations where you want to Mix and Render (to new track) all the tracks. There are other situations where you want to mix and render only a few.

The only way I can see out of this conundrum is for Mix and Render to throw an error if any of the selected tracks are Soloed or Muted. That is, Mix and Render will specifically only operate on non-muted, non-soloed tracks, thus assuring that the mix you get is what you would hear if all other tracks were muted. After all, what is the point of including a muted track in a Mix and Render?

-- Bill