After Pause why does Stop move the cursor?

[mr-b]

Yes this is the method that I mentioned in the OP. The trouble is that it comprises multiple steps which of course introduces the potential for errors, not to mention being rather laborious e.g. when zooming in, the view isn't centred on the pause pointer and so you have to scroll around to find it.

Shift-A would be much better if it were sample accurate (or else know the reasons why it isn't) and on the Gui somewhere.

Audacity has quite a few features, so I'm just surprised that this frequent function is so cumbersome to perform compared to other apps. I'm amazed that the Shift-A can only be done with the keyboard. Also that right-click doesn't seem to work anywhere - hence my impression that mouse ops are rather secondary to the keyboard!

Could these be candidates for new features?

[bgravato]

You can always start a new topic here: http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewforum.php?f=20

[Gale Andrews]

The real "Feature Request" is "Audacity should be able to edit when paused" I think. I suspect that would be a huge upheaval, intuitive as it might be if you are thinking along the lines of a mechanical piece of equipment.

Do you always use the mouse to stretch for the Pause button, or press P? If you can get used to press P, go to the Keyboard Preferences and using the "All" Category, clear Pause (half way down the list, now set at "P") and set "Play/Stop and set cursor" (about two-thirds of the way down) to "P". Then just don't use the Pause button because it isn't necessary for what you are doing.

Testing in 1.3.13 alpha on WIndows 7, if I Pause then Play/Stop and Set Cursor, this seems to be always sample accurate to the position where the playback cursor paused, but only if zoomed into sample level. The more zoomed out you are, the less accurate/predictable it is (I've sometimes seen it 2000+ samples off at 44100 Hz). I don't know that particular code, but think it should be a "review" bug,



Gale

[mr-b]

The real "Feature Request" is "Audacity should be able to edit when paused" I think. I suspect that would be a huge upheaval, intuitive as it might be if you are thinking along the lines of a mechanical piece of equipment.

You got it. I've been using the "mechanical equipment" interface style for longer than I care to remember, along with quite a fair number of ppl. Indeed I think it'll be quite a few generations before that user interface gets forgotten. So it would be good for any UIs to be compatible with that.
Yes I had a hunch that the "edit while paused" piece would not be an insignificant change, so I'd pretty much given up on that.

I think it's the concept of markers and cursors which can be confusing to a new user (and I can't find an explanation of the concepts in Audacity yet). To my mind you audibly and/or visually cue up an edit point having started from another marker, but then find that you can't actually start editing using that cued up point since you have to press Stop first (and then the marker/point/cursor disappears etc.). This is the single most confusing thing I've found about Audacity.
However a clear "set cursor" GUI function would help a lot.

Do you always use the mouse to stretch for the Pause button, or press P? If you can get used to press P, go to the Keyboard Preferences and using the "All" Category, clear Pause (half way down the list, now set at "P") and set "Play/Stop and set cursor" (about two-thirds of the way down) to "P". Then just don't use the Pause button because it isn't necessary for what you are doing.

I don't "stretch" as such - I usually use a trackball. However I just find that using the GUI for most stuff is easiest as I can browse for the functions and the mouse buttons are always to hand. Everyone keeps saying use the keyboard, but I find that difficult and regressive - firstly you have to learn what the keys are, then you have to try not to forget them. Then you have to look away from the screen to find the keys, when I'd prefer to keep the focus on the screen. For a beginner and/or occasional user it makes the learning curve unnecessarily steep.

Testing in 1.3.13 alpha on WIndows 7, if I Pause then Play/Stop and Set Cursor, this seems to be always sample accurate to the position where the playback cursor paused, but only if zoomed into sample level. The more zoomed out you are, the less accurate/predictable it is (I've sometimes seen it 2000+ samples off at 44100 Hz). I don't know that particular code, but think it should be a "review" bug,

Can you explain 'sample accurate' and 'zoomed into sample level'? Also what is a "review" bug? Code review or is it some bug category?
To me it's just odd that sometimes the cursor move is accurate (using hs + milliseconds) and other times not.
I logged both the GUI and accuracy aspect as an enhancement request - http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic ... 20&t=33556.

[Gale Andrews]

I think it's the concept of markers and cursors which can be confusing to a new user (and I can't find an explanation of the concepts in Audacity yet). To my mind you audibly and/or visually cue up an edit point having started from another marker, but then find that you can't actually start editing using that cued up point since you have to press Stop first (and then the marker/point/cursor disappears etc.). This is the single most confusing thing I've found about Audacity.
However a clear "set cursor" GUI function would help a lot.

The playback (green) and recording (red) cursors move rightwards away from the standard (black) cursor or from the start of the selection region, and are transitory. There isn't a permanent "playhead" that you can drag to change the playback position (another common Feature Request).

On the other hand, the cursor or region stays put until you move it. See Timeline in the Manual for explanations about cursors. You can use labels to permanently mark points or regions and then move the standard cursor or the region elsewhere.

Everyone keeps saying use the keyboard, but I find that difficult and regressive - firstly you have to learn what the keys are, then you have to try not to forget them. Then you have to look away from the screen to find the keys, when I'd prefer to keep the focus on the screen. For a beginner and/or occasional user it makes the learning curve unnecessarily steep.

As in everything it's a balance to be struck. "Buttons and menu items for everything" clutter the screen and are usually regarded as slower than shortcuts for power users.

Testing in 1.3.13 alpha on WIndows 7, if I Pause then Play/Stop and Set Cursor, this seems to be always sample accurate to the position where the playback cursor paused, but only if zoomed into sample level. The more zoomed out you are, the less accurate/predictable it is (I've sometimes seen it 2000+ samples off at 44100 Hz). I don't know that particular code, but think it should be a "review" bug,

Can you explain 'sample accurate' and 'zoomed into sample level'? Also what is a "review" bug? Code review or is it some bug category?

"Sample accurate" means that if you have the time format set to a value including samples, then when you "Play/Stop and set cursor" the value shown in Selection End is identical to that showing in "Audio Position" when you were paused.

"Zoomed into sample level" means hitting the zoom-in button until you can see the individual samples in the waveform (which then look like dots on a graph rather than a solid waveform).

A "review" bug means a bug category really, and will involve examining what the code is supposed to do and whether a fix is needed. As Steve suggested, the practical effects of the discrepancies observed could be negligible in most cases. Sometimes messing with the code to correct very minor problems can create worse problems. On the other hand inaccuracies can be symptomatic of wider problems. If so there will be a high benefit from fixing the root cause.



Gale

[bgravato]

Just to add my two cents...

We're all different and we all have different working methods. Which is better will depend on each individual... Some will be more productive working one way and some in other way.

mr-b founds working with the mouse to be easier, faster and more accurate... (and believe for him it probably is)
I think the exact opposite! I prefer working with the keyboard and have shortcut keys and the fewer icons I have taking space in the screen the better... For me a key stroke is much faster and accurate than clicking and dragging the mouse around... the least I have to touch the mouse the better.

Adding some of the features mr-b suggest will surely please some users, but could possibly annoy others (probably in larger number, since I believe the majority will prefer the keyboard shortcuts working method...).

It would be great to please both worlds, unfortunately, as we know, that's not always possible and choices need to be made.

In order to add some higher customization level in this matter, in a way that (I believe) wouldn't require such a heavy development load, my suggestion is to add a new toolbar with customizable buttons. In the same way you can (now) customize and assign tasks/functions to keyboard shortcuts, users would have the option to add a new toolbar where they could add custom buttons, for which they could change its function.

[steve]

In order to add some higher customization level in this matter, in a way that (I believe) wouldn't require such a heavy development load, my suggestion is to add a new toolbar with customizable buttons. In the same way you can (now) customize and assign tasks/functions to keyboard shortcuts, users would have the option to add a new toolbar where they could add custom buttons, for which they could change its function.

Great idea - I think you should post that in the "Adding Features to Audacity" section.

[Storer]

Here's a relatively easy keystoke method for selecting a chunk at the end of a track, checking it, and then deleting it. It uses some obscure keystrokes not available from the menus, so beware.

Put one finger on the [ key but don't press it yet. Now click with the mouse somewhere before you want the end of the recording to be. Click Play (or press spacebar) to start playing. When the time comes where you want the end to be, press the [ key. This will set the cursor at the playback point at that instant. Let the track play to the end, or simply press Stop (or spacebar). Press Z to cause the cursor to shift to the nearest upward zero crossing -- this will minimize any click at the end. Press SHIFT+K to select from the cursor to the end of the track. Now, if you want, you can use the C key (Cut Preview) to play the second or two before the selection to check on your end point. Adjust if necessary. The Delete key will now remove the unwanted part at the end of the track.

So if you trust your endpoint marking, the sequence is: Select a start point and start Playing, press ] to mark endpoint, Z to adjust to a better endpoint, Shift-K to select to the end, and press Delete

It uses some obscure keystrokes, but it's very quick. The amount of time played with the C key can be set by Menu->Edit->Preferences->Playback, under the Cut Preview times.

Hope this saves you some time.
Dave

[Gale Andrews]

If I am not in the mood for shortcuts, my own preferred method to listen to part of the track in order to select it for editing is to drag out a selection in the waveform and release the mouse where I want the selection to end. You can drag past the right hand edge of the waveform at any time to keep the region in front of the playback position. CTRL + B to label the region. Sometimes I might want to label contiguous regions. In that case, drag the left edge of the label rightwards then after it contracts to minimal size continue dragging and the old right edge will become the left edge of the new label.

You can also Edit > Play Region > Lock then you can drag out a play region which plays once as soon as you release the mouse. You can drag either end of the play region to adjust it but you can't save a region from the play region in any obvious way (yet something else regions should snap to).


Gale

[mr-b]

Interesting process with the '[' (or was it ']'?) - however I still think ppl have missed my point.

I'm *not* looking for a "quick" process. I need one that I can easily rediscover after a period away from the app, without the need for compiling crib sheets of shortcuts (which I'll invariably lose). And I don't see any other way than for this to be a simple selectable function in the GUI. (As mentioned before, GUI clutter can be reduced by various methods e.g. custom toolbars, icon drop-down options, ribbon toolbars etc.)

IMO it seems to be rather odd for a common edit function to require obscure keystrokes that have necessitated posting in a forum!
I'm afraid that my impression is that Audacity is really only geared for power users and not intended for casual or infrequent users e.g. the GUI not really intended for use in typical workflows (hence the hidden functions). I guess I'm asking the wrong ppl though as you guys are obviously all power users! It's a shame since all the other parts I've needed have been easy to find in the GUI.

(Also I'm afraid didn't understand the "drag out a selection in the waveform" process. I was confused as to how it related to trimming the end of a track, since I don't have anything already selected - I'm just focused on audibly cueing up the end point and then trimming everything after.)