Missing Audio Data Blocks

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Re: Missing Audio Data Blocks

Permanent link to this post Posted by waxcylinder » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:50 pm

thadd wrote:The workaround for people using Audacity 2.2.1, is to use "Save Project" (or "Ctrl + S") when updating the current saved project, rather than "Save Project As"
That is one heck of a Huge Bug. I would imagine almost all users use the "Save Project As" function because they want to preserve the original recording. With a bug this big 2.2.1 should be taken down until fixed or should come with a humongous warning so people understand that saving their work could botch the whole thing.

It is "one heck of a Huge Bug" that is why the developers and QA have been working on it

The bug only arises if you use Save As rather than simply Save (repeatedly) to save to the existing project name.
If you use Save Project to save the current project (as intended) and Save Project As to save a copy to a different project name (as intended) then all will be well.

The good news is that the bug is already fixed (I tested it as OK on both Windows and macOS) and the fix will be in the soon upcoming 2.2.2 - we accelerated 2.2.2 development to fix this as soon as humanly poissible.

WC
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Re: Missing Audio Data Blocks

Permanent link to this post Posted by kozikowski » Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:39 pm

The bug only arises if you use Save As rather than simply Save (repeatedly) to save to the existing project name.
If you use Save Project to save the current project (as intended) and Save Project As to save a copy to a different project name (as intended) then all will be well.

So it occurs from non-standard use of the tool which is why there was no test for it.

And yes it is a "B" bug. Evil, unexpected behavior experienced by multiple people on multiple different machines.

Correct me, it does fail one requirement in that it be repeatable. Is it? My opinion based on postings it's not. "Fails three times out of six."

How did we find it and do we know the mechanism of failure?

Koz
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Re: Missing Audio Data Blocks

Permanent link to this post Posted by waxcylinder » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:10 am

kozikowski wrote:And yes it is a "B" bug. Evil, unexpected behavior experienced by multiple people on multiple different machines.

Correct me, it does fail one requirement in that it be repeatable. Is it? My opinion based on postings it's not. "Fails three times out of six."


Nope, utterly consistent failure when you follow the Steps to reproduce in the bugzilla log - tested on Windows 10 and macOS

The first Save As is OK it is the subsequent Save As after edits that cause the failure and data loss


kozikowski wrote:How did we find it ...?


From the original user posting on the Forum - and subsequent testing to confirm.

The Steps to reproduce in the Bugzilla entry were built to emulate what the user reported they had done.


kozikowski wrote: ... and do we know the mechanism of failure?

I don't but I'm sure Paul does - he wrote the fix for it - but I confirm it works, I tested on both platforms - so the fix will be in the soon to be upcoming 2.2.1

If you're really interested here is Paul's commit for the fix: https://github.com/audacity/audacity/co ... b3f3d570fc

Peter.
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Re: Missing Audio Data Blocks

Permanent link to this post Posted by waxcylinder » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:20 am

kozikowski wrote:
The bug only arises if you use Save As rather than simply Save (repeatedly) to save to the existing project name.
If you use Save Project to save the current project (as intended) and Save Project As to save a copy to a different project name (as intended) then all will be well.

So it occurs from non-standard use of the tool which is why there was no test for it.

Indeed - all of us QA bods and developers use "Save" and "Save As" for their intended purpose - never using "Save As" as a direct replacement for "Save" - in fact I'm guessing that most of us just uses Ctrl+S/Cmd+S shortcuts.

Bill and I both recommended blocking the use of "Save As" to save to the currently open project - but Paul rejected that idea, wanting instead to fix the underlying problem.


BTW we have a parallel situation elsewhere in Audacity where we allow "File>Open" to open an audio file - except it doesn't actually do that.

What it actually does is "Open" a new project and then silently and invisibly to the user "Imports" the audio file (making the user unaware of the mechanisms and leading them to believe wrongly that they are operating directly on their audio file). One again this is a mechanism that devs are QAers are unlikely to use (and thus test).

Fortunately there have been no bugs arising from this AFAIK - but there has been, as we know from the Forum, user confusion.


Peter
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Re: Missing Audio Data Blocks

Permanent link to this post Posted by kozikowski » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:13 am

That is one heck of a Huge Bug. I would imagine almost all users use the "Save Project As" function because they want to preserve the original recording.

That's not the bug. Save Project As sets you up to save the Project under a different name. Save Project sets you up for overwriting the original project. The bug is people using Save Project As and not introducing a new name.

That's why it took so long to find. Who is their right mind would cross the commands like that? And again, as above, it doesn't always happen.

Everyone agrees it's a bug, but technically it's not. A bug has to be easily reproducible on multiple different machines by multiple different users.

It's far from easily reproducible. Further, it's the result of people using the program wrong. You can't check for all incorrect variations.

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Re: Missing Audio Data Blocks

Permanent link to this post Posted by waxcylinder » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:25 am

kozikowski wrote:
That is one heck of a Huge Bug. I would imagine almost all users use the "Save Project As" function because they want to preserve the original recording.

That's not the bug. Save Project As sets you up to save the Project under a different name. Save Project sets you up for overwriting the original project. The bug is people using Save Project As and not introducing a new name.

Indeed, I agree - and Bill proposed that as a solution we make Audacity inhibit the use of Save As to to overwrite the existing project (and I supported that) - nut Paul, As Release Manager, rejected that idea as he was determined to analyze and fix the underlying programming faults "under the hood"



kozikowski wrote:Everyone agrees it's a bug, but technically it's not. A bug has to be easily reproducible on multiple different machines by multiple different users. It's far from easily reproducible

The bug as logged in Bugzilla was perfectly reproducible every time, on Windows, on Mac an on all QA testers machines, if you follow the listed "Steps to reproduce: http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1811


kozikowski wrote:That's why it took so long to find.

It didn't actually take very long - my understanding was that this bug was only introduced very recently in 2.2.0 - and was only discovered by a user early after the release of 2.2.1 (which was itself a shot-term bug-fix release). After that report it took only a couple of days of QA team testing to isolate reproducibe causes - and the Paul went into action to fix the bug - fixed now in 2.2.2


kozikowski wrote:Who is their right mind would cross the commands like that? And again, as above, it doesn't always happen.

Well plenty of other apps allow you to do this - Microsoft Word does it without complaint or warning - Excel does it with a warning

Personally I still think that we should inhibit the use of Save As in Audacity for the current project - and restrict it to the purpose for which it was designed - namely saving to an alternative project name. But there appears to be no support for that from among the developers (who are the only people that can make it happen).

What I will do, now that James is RM, is to canvass him to see if he is prepared to make this change. Can I assume, Koz, that I can add your support for this when I do?

Cheers,
Peter
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Re: Missing Audio Data Blocks

Permanent link to this post Posted by kozikowski » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:50 pm

he was determined to analyze and fix the underlying programming faults "under the hood"

So he wants to make Save As revert to Save actions safely and correctly if you don't put a new filename in?
I think that's dangerous. At least one poster assumed he was somehow getting separate, isolated versions of the show when he did that.

I can think of one variation. Save As will not allow any action without a filename, but will safely allow you to type in the same filename.

That allows maximum deniability and safety.

"Yes, poster, typing the original name is awkward, but you can use Save and get the same result much quicker."
/or/
"It overwrote the original file because you explicitly told it to. It doesn't work any other way."

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Re: Missing Audio Data Blocks

Permanent link to this post Posted by waxcylinder » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:57 pm

kozikowski wrote:
he was determined to analyze and fix the underlying programming faults "under the hood"

So he wants to make Save As revert to Save actions safely and correctly if you don't put a new filename in?
I think that's dangerous. At least one poster assumed he was somehow getting separate, isolated versions of the show when he did that.


I think it's jolly dangerous too.

As well as being totally unnecessary


kozikowski wrote:I can think of one variation. Save As will not allow any action without a filename, but will safely allow you to type in the same filename.

That allows maximum deniability and safety.

That would work for me - but I'd still prefer to just totally stop "Save As" saving back to the current project name


kozikowski wrote:"Yes, poster, typing the original name is awkward, but you can use Save and get the same result much quicker."

Indeed we have a perfectly good File>Save command and an even better Ctrl+S/Cmd+S shortcut for saving an already open project.

But I have always wondered why we don't have a little "Save" button in a toolbar (like say Word and Excel have - with their little floppy disk icon)

Peter
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