Workflow on mixing tracks

[steve]

Otherwise, please do not use the same term in different places for different things.

That is exactly what I want to resolve.

"Edit > Preferences > Warnings: Mixing down...."
Here we use the word "Mixing" to mean "mix selected tracks that are not muted,

"Edit > Preferences > Import / Export: Always mix all tracks down to Stereo or Mono channel(s)
Here the word "all" means "not muted".

http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/mixer_toolbar.html
Here we use the term "mixer" in relation to playback and recording, specifically in relation to the sound system mixer.

http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/fa ... ogether.3F
Here we certainly seem to imply that mixing on playback, Mix and Render and mixing on export are equivalent.

http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/mixing.html
Here we refer to "mixing" in the context of playback, Mix and Render, and Exporting, but we do not explain that "mixing" is different in each of these cases.

[Robert J. H.]

The point I keep trying to make is that "Mix down" is ambiguous as to whether it is a "what u hear" mix or not, given what is being proposed is different to export mix and different to the "mixing down" listed in Warning Preferences.

Even Steve admits "Mix Down" is not always what u hear.

I'm very simple-minded on this - and thus a strong believer that the Mix/Mixdown/Mix& Render should restrict itself to delivering what you can actually hear.

I would naively expect to export what I heard - not what was lying there deliberately hidden.

If you want muted tacks in the mix the simply unmute them - simple and straightforward.

I really do not like interfaces that deliver "hidden under-the-counter" items.

Oh, and if that might confuse some users who are used to the old way of doing things then we warn them about that in the Release Notes, in the MAnual and possibly in a warning message that says something like "You have muted tracks , these will not be included in the Mix/Mixdown/whatever". Also simple, straightforward and easy to understand.

But I am glad, Gale, that you agree we can drop the silly "and Render"

Peter

+1

[Gale Andrews]

Mixing is a generic term. Mixdown/Mix Down is (or appears to be) more specific.

If we have a preference for not exporting muted tracks then the "mix" term there will be clearer.

http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/mixing.html already mentions tracks with Mute on are not exported. I added a sentence to clarify that Mute/Solo are not respected for tracks mixing.


Gale

Otherwise, please do not use the same term in different places for different things.

That is exactly what I want to resolve.

"Edit > Preferences > Warnings: Mixing down...."
Here we use the word "Mixing" to mean "mix selected tracks that are not muted,

"Edit > Preferences > Import / Export: Always mix all tracks down to Stereo or Mono channel(s)
Here the word "all" means "not muted".

http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/mixer_toolbar.html
Here we use the term "mixer" in relation to playback and recording, specifically in relation to the sound system mixer.

http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/fa ... ogether.3F
Here we certainly seem to imply that mixing on playback, Mix and Render and mixing on export are equivalent.

http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/mixing.html
Here we refer to "mixing" in the context of playback, Mix and Render, and Exporting, but we do not explain that "mixing" is different in each of these cases.

[Gale Andrews]

My "mystery shopper" just got in from work - I asked her if Export and Mix/Render should honour "what you here" her immediate response "Of course it should".

Clearly she never mixes and renders tracks to save space or splits stereo tracks to listen just to one.


Gale

[Gale Andrews]

How do you do a "Custom mix" to a new track, notably current Audacity mix ignoring Mute / Solo to a new track? We must still be able to do that.

Enable the option "Retain original tracks".

I think most of us agree all those options are way too complex.


Gale

[Gale Andrews]

Nothing changed since then and probably won't.

THAT is what I find so exasperating. A bad decision was made years ago so we must live with it forever. :sigh:

Me too - and note carefully that this is not the only place we continue to abide by old bad decisions <sighs deeply>

If we can all agree on a KISS solution that does not lead to regressions in usability, it might change.


Gale

[Gale Andrews]

That would be "mix in place" or "render in place", or "freeze track(s)" if you 'd want to keep in line with what others DAW's do. And it would avoid all the steps above,

Yes, exactly so.

"Mix in place" is much clearer. I had no idea what Steve meant.

I might sometimes find that useful, if I could use that to render envelope points on only the Left track or only Right track of a split stereo track. But I am not sure if you would intend that option to do that rather than have it create a stereo track as now?

Either way, I don't see such an option would want to be hidden in Preferences. If Envelopes are the only use case, how about right-click the track when in Envelope tool > Render Points?


Gale

[Gale Andrews]

I believe people like me who split stereo tracks and those who mix to clear space will get bear-trapped.

An important feature of any "trap", whether for bears or otherwise, is that it remains hidden until the trap is sprung.

In the aforementioned case of two tracks where track 2 is both muted and soloed, track 1 is greyed out and track 2 plays. The export behaviour that means that only track 1 will be exported is cleverly concealed. That is a "trap".

Then add the warning. It's a serious bug there is no warning for some tracks muted.

In the proposed behaviour, track 2 plays, track 2 will be the result of "mix and render" (or whatever we call it) and track 2 will be the result of exporting. There is no concealment of what will happen and no hidden rules. it is not a "trap". What you get is what you hear - it is all out in the open.

Sigh. Which is not actually useful when I want to mix from the Tracks Menu or mix all selected tracks to save space.

Tracks menu items work on all selected tracks regardless of Mute/Solo. You are creating your own trap if you have a sole Tracks > Mix behaviour that does something else without having a clear label that it does something else (to say nothing of the inconvenience to those who actually want to ignore Mute/Solo).


Gale

[steve]

Sigh. Which is not actually useful when I want to mix from the Tracks Menu or mix all selected tracks to save space.

agreed that it's not useful if you want to include muted tracks in the mix, but it is useful if you want to exclude muted tracks from the mix. Whichever way round we have it (or have the default), it inevitably benefits one use case at the expense of the other.

Looking at the pros and cons:

• Is one use case more common than the other? Probably not.
• Is one use case more important than the other? For any user, "their" use case is more important.
• Is one more inconvenient than the other? For Jonnie's use case (the op), having to scroll through many tracks and select them individually is clearly a far greater inconvenience that Gale's suggested use case which requires unmuting one track.
• Is one more logical than the other? Imo, if we have consistent behaviour for mixing, whether mixing on playback, mixing to a new track, or mixing on export, then that is more logical.
• Is one more "intuitive" than the other? Certainly this is a subjective call, but Peter, cyrano, Robert and myself all seem to agree that it is more intuitive for mixing to always produce "what you hear".
• Is the code more easily maintained one way than the other? If we use one common "mixer" class to handle mixing, rather than duplicating similar code in multiple places, then that would be easier to maintain and less susceptible to bugs.
• Does one lead to less surprises than the other? I was certainly surprised to find that if I have 2 track and one is both muted and soloed, that the exported track is the one that I couldn't hear. Imo, that is probably the most surprising behaviour that has been revealed in this discussion. I don't personally find anything "surprising" about mixing consistently doing the same thing.

[Robert J. H.]

Sigh. Which is not actually useful when I want to mix from the Tracks Menu or mix all selected tracks to save space.

agreed that it's not useful if you want to include muted tracks in the mix, but it is useful if you want to exclude muted tracks from the mix. Whichever way round we have it (or have the default), it inevitably benefits one use case at the expense of the other.

Looking at the pros and cons:

• Is one use case more common than the other? Probably not.
• Is one use case more important than the other? For any user, "their" use case is more important.
• Is one more inconvenient than the other? For Jonnie's use case (the op), having to scroll through many tracks and select them individually is clearly a far greater inconvenience that Gale's suggested use case which requires unmuting one track.
• Is one more logical than the other? Imo, if we have consistent behaviour for mixing, whether mixing on playback, mixing to a new track, or mixing on export, then that is more logical.
• Is one more "intuitive" than the other? Certainly this is a subjective call, but Peter, cyrano, Robert and myself all seem to agree that it is more intuitive for mixing to always produce "what you hear".
• Is the code more easily maintained one way than the other? If we use one common "mixer" class to handle mixing, rather than duplicating similar code in multiple places, then that would be easier to maintain and less susceptible to bugs.
• Does one lead to less surprises than the other? I was certainly surprised to find that if I have 2 track and one is both muted and soloed, that the exported track is the one that I couldn't hear. Imo, that is probably the most surprising behaviour that has been revealed in this discussion. I don't personally find anything "surprising" about mixing consistently doing the same thing.

I fully agree.

The mix-down per selectiveness is in fact a poor replacement for the send (e.g. to aux, sub-group) knob, associated with hardware devices.
It works post-pan/gain/env... but strangely enough pre-solo/mute. However, there's also a monitor/studio/control room button on some consoles and the general behaviour can often be tweaked. After all, there's no consistency on HDs either.

Another thing that might be helpful for the current problem:
We could add a new sort option, a checkbox for "States".
The tracks would be listed by solo, solo+mute, no state and finally mute alone.
It would thus be much easier to select a whole bunch of similar tracks (e.g with Shift+Arrow keys).