Audacity Forum

I don't think that the term "Mix and Render" is "bad". The term "Mix" and the term "Render" are both valid and commonly used terms individually, but not as a phrase.
Given that most of our users have little or no experience of audio production software, I doubt that many would understand the term "Render" or the phrase "rendering a track" without additional explanation.

In audio production, the term "Render" generally means applying real-time rules to create the physical audio data. The term is also commonly used in video and 3d graphics production to create a picture from a set of parameters. Technically, applying an amplitude envelope to the audio data, or applying a time track, is "rendering".

The problem that we have is that we don't have a clearly defined structure of where "rendering" comes in relation to the mute and solo buttons. This leads to inconsistency because rendering occurs in different places with regard to mute and solo depending on whether we are "rendering to the sound output" (playing the track), rendering to a new track ("Mix and Render") or rendering to a file ("Exporting").

waxcylinder wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:The point I keep trying to make is that "Mix down" is ambiguous as to whether it is a "what u hear" mix or not, given what is being proposed is different to export mix and different to the "mixing down" listed in Warning Preferences.

Even Steve admits "Mix Down" is not always what u hear.

I'm very simple-minded on this - and thus a strong believer that the Mix/Mixdown/Mix& Render should restrict itself to delivering what you can actually hear.

None of the other Tracks menu items respect Mute/Solo. As a naive user it would be completely unexpected to me they would do that, unless clearly labelled as such. Cyrano said so too.

And I actually want a mix item or option that ignores Mute/Solo (for working on split stereo tracks).

People mixing to clear space will want an option that ignores Mute/Solo.

waxcylinder wrote:if that might confuse some users who are used to the old way of doing things then we warn them about that in the Release Notes, in the MAnual and possibly in a warning message that says something like "You have muted tracks , these will not be included in the Mix/Mixdown/whatever".

-1. I have given several reasons why we need a Mix option that ignores Mute/Solo as now. No reason not to have both methods. We have three (!) Solo button behaviours.


Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:None of the other Tracks menu items respect Mute/Solo.

None of the other Track menu items are mixing tracks.

Mixing on playback respects Mute and Solo.
Mixing on Export respects Mute but not Solo.
Mixing to a new track respects neither Mute or Solo.

Sorry but I don't see that to be consistent, expected or intuitive.

steve wrote:Mixing on playback respects Mute and Solo.
Mixing on Export respects Mute but not Solo.
Mixing to a new track respects neither Mute or Solo.

Sorry but I don't see that to be consistent, expected or intuitive.

The ever so simple solution is for mixing to come after mute and solo in the effect stack, then the behaviour will be:

Mixing on playback respects Mute and Solo.
Mixing on Export respects Mute and Solo.
Mixing to a new track respects Mute and Solo.

In each case you "get what you hear". Is that too simple?

Gale Andrews wrote: I have given several reasons why we need a Mix option that ignores Mute/Solo as now.

Well maybe we do need an addional command (or two commands) for mix that ignore Mute and or solo.

Or maybe we just the the one Mix command that could pop up a dialog where the user cour choose their options:
1) Mix
2) Mix to new track
3) Ignore/respect Mute
4) Ignore/respect solo

This would have the advantge of making it perfectly clear to the user exactly wat is going on in the mix and what is or is not to be included, also aiding those who were used to the old ways helping them avoid being tripped up by changed behaviours.

And presumably like our other commands and effects it would "remember" the user's settings in their audacity.cfg file, so having set it up once for their preferred method of working it would remain that way until they changed it.

It would also have the advantage of reducing the command-count in the Tracks menu.

Peter.

Another way around this would be to have a couple of new Tracks Preferences
1) Respect/ignore mute on mixdown
1) Respect/ignore solo on mixdown

But I prefer the idea in my previous post of a dialog-driven command with selectable options as it makes it clearer to the user what is going on.

Peter

waxcylinder wrote:Or maybe we just the the one Mix command that could pop up a dialog where the user cour choose their options:

I'd not want to lose separate shortcuts for "Mix and Render" and "Mix and Render to New Track". I regularly use both. In multi-track projects I frequently want to retain the original un-mixed tracks as backups (you can't un-mix a track), but it would be a pain to have to manually delete all of the "source" tracks when I want to do a straight mix-down.

Iirc, "Mix to New" was originally only available as a shortcut, but it was decided that it was sufficiently useful to warrant its own menu item. Imo, that is still true.

We could perhaps have the "mixing" commands in a new "Tracks > Mix and Render" sub-menu. This would retain existing keyboard shortcuts and allow us to provide more mixing options without extending the Tracks menu. The sub-menu could include:

• Mixdown Track(s)
• Mixdown to New Track
• Mix or Render with Options...
• Mix with Last Used Options

The third item brings up an interface which could have, for example,

• Options to ignore Mute/Solo buttons, Time Track, Envelopes, track gain, track pan,
• An option to "Mixdown All Tracks" in the project.
• An option to "render" the selected tracks "in place" without mixing them. For example, you could "apply" ("Render") the track envelopes of multiple tracks without mixing the tracks.

It could also support user presets for regular mixing tasks, such as mixing down the entire project as "what you hear".

The fourth item allows "Mix with Options" to be called using a keyboard shortcut or as a one click operation, applying the last used options without opening the "options" GUI. This would benefit users like Gale that only want the old behaviour.

steve wrote:We could perhaps have the "mixing" commands in a new "Tracks > Mix and Render" sub-menu. This would retain existing keyboard shortcuts and allow us to provide more mixing options without extending the Tracks menu. The sub-menu could include:

• Mixdown Track(s)
• Mixdown to New Track
• Mix or Render with Options...
• Mix with Last Used Options

We could perhaps have the "mixing" commands in a new "Tracks > Mix Audio" sub-menu.

Wouldn't your option 4 above be that used in options 1 and 2 as the commande should "remember" the user's previously use settings anyway - and thus is not option 4 redundant?

Peter

waxcylinder wrote: Wouldn't your option 4 above be that used in options 1 and 2 as the commande

No, though I agree that the names I chose (off the top of my head) are not particularly clear.

The third menu item brings up a dialog with options for mixing / rendering. The 4th menu item repeats that effect (mix with custom options) without the dialog, much as Ctrl+R repeats the last effect.

Unlike Ctrl + R, the settings for the 4th item persist even if other effects have been used since "Mix or Render with Options" and persist after Audacity has been closed. Thus, for the current "Mix and Render" behaviour, you would only need that to be set in the "Mix or Render Options" (could be the default), then the 4th menu item will always perform that action until you change the options.

An alternative approach could be:

• Mixdown Track(s)
• Mixdown to New Track
• Custom Mix / Render
• Custom Mix / Render Options...

By default, "Custom Mix / Render" could be the same as the current "Mix and Render".
This disadvantage of this (compared to the previous idea), is that to apply a new "custom mix" action becomes two steps (rather than one) - first the options need to be set, then then the effect can be called.

OK, so here's another variation for supporting customisable mixing / rendering options:

In Preferences there is a page for "Custom Mix / Render Options".
This includes options for (suggested defaults in brackets):

• Mix tracks: All / Selected / None ["Selected"]
• Ignore Mute button [enabled]
• Ignore Solo button [enabled]
• Ignore amplitude envelope [disabled]
• Ignore Time Track [disabled]
• Ignore Track Gain [disabled]
• Ignore Track Pan [disabled]
• Retain original tracks [disabled]

In the Tracks menu we have a sub-menu called "Mixing / Rendering"
This sub menu has 4 menu items:

• Mixdown Tracks
• Mixdown to New Track
• Custom Mix / Render
• Custom Mix / Render with Options...

"Mixdown Tracks" acts like the current "Mix and Render" except that Mute and Solo buttons are respected.
"Mixdown to New Track" acts like the current "Mix and Render to New Track" except that Mute and Solo buttons are respected.

"Custom Mix / Render" uses the "Custom Mix / Render Options" from Preferences.
On first use, there will be a "warning" that says words to the effect of:

"You are about to Mix / Render tracks using the settings stored in Preferences.
To change these preferences, open "Edit > Preferences > Tracks > Custom Mix / Render Options"
or use "Custom Mix / Render with Options..." from the Tracks menu.
Don't show this again[_] [CANCEL] [OK]"

The default behaviour is the same as the current "Mix and Render".

"Custom Mix / Render with Options..." has a GUI that contains all of the same options as appear in "Edit > Preferences > Tracks > Custom Mix / Render Options"
It also has one additional option:

• Save settings to Preferences [enabled]

When this final option is enabled, the options selected in this GUI are written to Preferences and will then be used by the "Custom Mix / Render" command.
On first use, the settings are read from preferences.
On subsequent use, the settings are remembered from last use.
The GUI also has a "Manage" button that allows custom settings to be saved.
"Manage > Factory Presets" has two options:

• Defaults
• Read from Preferences