Audacity Forum

Gale Andrews wrote:I don't see what "and Render" adds to the understanding, because it seems obvious that waveforms are going to change. So if we have new "Mix" functions perhaps we can revisit the "and Render".

I don't mind either. Some newbies might just recognize "render" and it would teach them a bit about what to expect from that function. It might confuse others, tho...

Despite that the current "mix" does do what I would expect it to. None of the other Tracks menu items take into account audibility of the track.

And that's the point that will confuse some.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:Aside: Assuming the export behaviour probably won't change without a lot of argument I do think we should warn whenever we export with a Mute button on, not just when all tracks are muted. This prevents nasty surprises. Then add "Exporting tracks with Mute on" to Warnings Preferences. I propose adding this to Bugzilla (as a bug not an enhancement). Anyone disagree?

I think that's a reasonable enhancement which may help some novice users. It's not a "bug" because applying the mute status is "doing the right thing".

I feel it is a bug because we only thought about exporting no audio, not that the exported audio could be other than what was intended. We did not consider that without that warning, there is no way to advise the user in the interface that the Mute behaves as it does on export.

steve wrote:I think it would need to be in addition to the current warning about all tracks being muted. The first thing that I would do with the proposed new warning is to disable it, but I'd still like to keep the warning about all tracks being muted.

OK but perhaps the warning when all tracks are muted should not be optional? Disabling such a warning would mean clicking on Export would do nothing and would look broken.

If so the option might be "Exporting with Mute on some tracks".

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:As I asked, does "mixing down" necessarily mean the mix is what you heard before the mix?

That is the usual meaning.
As an example, from the Ardour manual:

You can mute tracks, pan tracks, turn effects on or off, change the output level. Whatever you do to adjust the sound will show up in the two mixed down tracks.

That meaning is still incompatible with the current meaning of "Mix down" in Warnings Preferences. Given that and given our audience is different from Ardour's I doubt "Mix down" is an entirely safe choice for a "what U hear" mix.


Gale

I still think that a new select command for "What-you-hear" tracks is the better option at this moment.
A mix-down menu had to respect to many options since either selected tracks or audible tracks had to be listed twice (deleting old tracks or render to a new track).

And there's something coming to my mind that I'll post in another feature request, though it might have an impact on "Mix and Render".

Robert J. H. wrote:I still think that a new select command for "What-you-hear" tracks is the better option at this moment.

Is that useful other than for Mix and Render? I guess it could be useful for applying effects. However for most users that item would be hard to discover buried in Edit > Select.

Would it be unreasonable to have both that Edit > Select item and a new Mix Down menu item or preference?

Robert J. H. wrote:A mix-down menu had to respect to many options since either selected tracks or audible tracks had to be listed twice (deleting old tracks or render to a new track).

Not so if we had a preference for mix behaviour, though I think defaulting to "mix down" would be disruptive.

I also think a preference could be inflexible if people want to change the mix behaviour often. Could we have a checkable item in the Tracks menu for the mix behaviour "Mix ignores Mute/Solo (on/off)" (default checked)? The benefit is that is clear ("Mix Down" is not clear to the average user, IMO).


Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:"Mix Down" is not clear to the average user, IMO

"Mix and Render" is not clear to the average user IMO. My "mystery shopper" agrees
At least with the term "Mix Down" there are millions of references in books, magazines, Internet articles etc. On the other hand, the exact term "Mix and Render" appears to be unique to Audacity.

If users don't understand about mixing but want learn how to do it, then they need a bit of education. If Audacity is to be useful in the role of education, then it really should use standard terminology.

Try Googling or Yahooing "Mix and Render" and see what you get => a couple of Audacity entries mixed in with loads of stuff about buiding trades rendering - you don't see any other audio apps.

Similarly try "mixdown" and then see what you get.

So on the basis of that research I'm +1 for losing "Mix and Render" in favour of "Mix Down" or "Mixdown" - or even "Mix-down"

Or even "Mix Audio"

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_mix ... d_music%29

Peter

waxcylinder wrote:Try Googling or Yahooing "Mix and Render" and see what you get => a couple of Audacity entries mixed in with loads of stuff about buiding trades rendering - you don't see any other audio apps.

Similarly try "mixdown" and then see what you get.

So on the basis of that research I'm +1 for losing "Mix and Render" in favour of "Mix Down" or "Mixdown" - or even "Mix-down"

Or even "Mix Audio"

I have already suggested that if we change or add options for Tracks > Mix items that we change the "and render".

The point I keep trying to make is that "Mix down" is ambiguous as to whether it is a "what u hear" mix or not, given what is being proposed is different to export mix and different to the "mixing down" listed in Warning Preferences.

Even Steve admits "Mix Down" is not always what u hear.

We cannot have the same terms used for two different actions in two different places.


Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:The point I keep trying to make is that "Mix down" is ambiguous as to whether it is a "what u hear" mix or not, given what is being proposed is different to export mix and different to the "mixing down" listed in Warning Preferences.

What I'm suggesting is that it mixing on export and mixing to a new track should be consistent.

Personally I've never been caught by the peculiarity of mixing on export, probably because that particular bear trap is less exposed when using the "Simple" solo button behaviour, but now that you mention it I can see what you mean.

Example of (imo extremely bad) peculiar mixing behaviour on export:
1) Generate a Chirp into a new project.
2) Generate noise into a new track.
3) Set both the solo and mute buttons down on the second (noise) track.
4) Press Play. The Solo button overrides the Mute button, the "Chirp" track is greyed out. The Noise track plays.
5) Export.
6) Guess what has been exported... WRONG!
How totally ridiculous is that! I am astounded.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:The point I keep trying to make is that "Mix down" is ambiguous as to whether it is a "what u hear" mix or not, given what is being proposed is different to export mix and different to the "mixing down" listed in Warning Preferences.

What I'm suggesting is that it mixing on export and mixing to a new track should be consistent.

I did not see you suggest changing export behaviour before now (in this topic). If you don't change export behaviour then your Tracks > Mix Down will be inconsistent with export and will be ambiguous.

steve wrote:Example of (imo extremely bad) peculiar mixing behaviour on export:
1) Generate a Chirp into a new project.
2) Generate noise into a new track.
3) Set both the solo and mute buttons down on the second (noise) track.
4) Press Play. The Solo button overrides the Mute button, the "Chirp" track is greyed out. The Noise track plays.
5) Export.
6) Guess what has been exported... WRONG!
How totally ridiculous is that! I am astounded.

That is why I want to add a Warnings Preference "Exporting with Mute on some tracks" as a bug not an enhancement.


Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:The point I keep trying to make is that "Mix down" is ambiguous as to whether it is a "what u hear" mix or not, given what is being proposed is different to export mix and different to the "mixing down" listed in Warning Preferences.

Even Steve admits "Mix Down" is not always what u hear.

I'm very simple-minded on this - and thus a strong believer that the Mix/Mixdown/Mix& Render should restrict itself to delivering what you can actually hear.

I would naively expect to export what I heard - not what was lying there deliberately hidden.

If you want muted tacks in the mix the simply unmute them - simple and straightforward.

I really do not like interfaces that deliver "hidden under-the-counter" items.

Oh, and if that might confuse some users who are used to the old way of doing things then we warn them about that in the Release Notes, in the MAnual and possibly in a warning message that says something like "You have muted tracks , these will not be included in the Mix/Mixdown/whatever". Also simple, straightforward and easy to understand.

But I am glad, Gale, that you agree we can drop the silly "and Render"

Peter