Move some export preferences into export interface

[cyrano]

If you mean that you need to click on OK once to close a cell you were editing then again to export or move to the next metadata screen, I see that too on El Capitan. In 2.1.1, OK closed the cell and actioned the window.

That's exactly what I mean, Gale.

[waxcylinder]

Some of this we've done and some not done.

@Steve (in particular) what do you want me to do with this thread ??

Peter

[steve]

Some of this we've done and some not done.
@Steve (in particular) what do you want me to do with this thread ??

It would be nice to decide what we intend to do about some of the issues that have not yet been dealt with. For example:

I strongly disagree that it is intuitive for export multiple to have no way at time of export to prevent having to click OK on every single metadata screen. Many users say it is unintuitive, and worse than that, this is something that Audacity 1.2 actually got right. In other words, it is a regression for a common everyday task.

I see why some users will want metadata to "pass through" without having to click OK each time, but we already have that, and I think it's an exaggeration to say that Audacity 1.2 "got it right". Gale did not specify which 1.2.x release he was referring to - I picked 1.2.6 because that was the official 1.2.x release version for a very long time, and 9other than the Mac only 1.2.6a release), was the final release of the 1.2.x series.

Having just tested how metadata passthrough performs when exporting multiple in Audacity 1.2.6, the "Track Title" that I entered was overwritten, not only in the exported files but also back into the project. I tried to start number the tracks from "7" for the second side of an album, but that was overwridden and numbering started at "1". The metadata editor does not pop up before export, and the only way to see the metadata is to open the editor manually. There was no way to see what Audacity was doing other than waiting for the exports to complete and then view the file properties in an appropriate application. There is no way to override this default behaviour. There is no way to change any of the metadata during Export Multiple, so, for example, when exporting "Hits from the 90's", all tracks list the same artist. (and Metadata tags appear to be unsupported for any format other than MP3).

I do agree that there should be a way to "pass through" Metadata Tags on Export Multiple, in fact there already is. We would need to decide exactly what metadata is passed through, what gets updated / overwritten, and I don't think that we would want to loose functionality that Audacity 2.1.2 has that was missing from 1.2.6. I don't really see anything better about metadata handling in 1.2.6 than what we have now.

Features that I am still keen on are those that I mentioned in the first post of this topic (http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic ... 29#p296129). I would welcome any suggestions to move those proposals forward.

[Gale Andrews]

I strongly disagree that it is intuitive for export multiple to have no way at time of export to prevent having to click OK on every single metadata screen. Many users say it is unintuitive, and worse than that, this is something that Audacity 1.2 actually got right. In other words, it is a regression for a common everyday task.

I see why some users will want metadata to "pass through" without having to click OK each time, but we already have that, and I think it's an exaggeration to say that Audacity 1.2 "got it right". Gale did not specify which 1.2.x release he was referring to - I picked 1.2.6 because that was the official 1.2.x release version for a very long time, and 9other than the Mac only 1.2.6a release), was the final release of the 1.2.x series.

I never suggested Metadata Export was completely right in 1.2.x - it was not. It was inflexible and I am not saying slavishly copy what 1.2.x did. However for the *very common* use case where you recorded from a cassette or LP and did just one export multiple it was a far nicer experience - just enter the common metadata once at the expected time when the metadata editor pops up.

I suggest we actually pay attention to the 60 or so votes we have for making the *very common* use case work intuitively with minimal user effort. I have written extensive suggestions in this topic about what current Audacity could do. I suggest you read those for ideas to consider. We actually agree on most of it, including the "No Metadata" checkbox and removing the Show Metadata Editor preference.


Gale

[steve]

just enter the common metadata once at the expected time when the metadata editor pops up.

In 1.2.6 it doesn't pop up. It has to be opened by the user prior to export. That option is available in the current version of Audacity.

I suggest we actually pay attention to the 60 or so votes we have for making the *very common* use case work intuitively with minimal user effort.

I presume that this is the feature request that you are referring to:
"Checkbox in dialog to pass metadata through to all exported files automatically: if identical tags wanted for all files, saves having to (remember to) File > Open Metadata Editor to add tags before export. (59 votes) "

Yes it has (relatively) a lot of votes, but if we implement that literally I expect that those, and many other users will be unhappy with the result.
As it currently stands:

• The proposal has no provision for "Track Name" or "Track Number", but it is extremely unlikely that they will be "recorded from a cassette or LP" in which every track has the same name and same track number.
• Most cassettes and LPs are likely to have 2 sides. There is no provision in that proposal for numbering the tracks on the "B side" correctly.
• The proposal does NOT require that the metadata has to be entered between the export dialog step and the actual export - that appears to be an interpretation that you have superimposed on top of what has been requested by users.
• The main feature, as logged on the wiki is already present in the current version of Audacity. If you turn off the "Show metadata tags prior to export step" option in preferences, then the behaviour is as it was in Audacity 1.2.6. The metadata is passed through to all exported files automatically. The only part that is missing is the bit in parentheses at the end, but if a user is going to "forget" to add metadata, might they not also forget to check the checkbox?

Rather than presenting this option in the Export dialog, wouldn't it be better to present it as an option in the Metadata dialog when performing Export Multiple?
That is:
The metadata dialog opens by default as it does now, and there is an option (off by default) to
"Apply this metadata to all exported tracks (track number will increment)".

[cyrano]

"Checkbox in dialog to pass metadata through to all exported files automatically: if identical tags wanted for all files, saves having to (remember to) File > Open Metadata Editor to add tags before export. (59 votes) "

Yes it has (relatively) a lot of votes, but if we implement that literally I expect that those, and many other users will be unhappy with the result.
As it currently stands:

• The proposal has no provision for "Track Name" or "Track Number", but it is extremely unlikely that they will be "recorded from a cassette or LP" in which every track has the same name and same track number.

I've observed some users doing this, mainly in iTunes and literally nobody expects the software to be able to imagine the song name, despite music databases.

But all expect the band name to be copied over automagically.

Keep in mind that these users aren't absolute beginners. An absolute beginner might expect absolute magic.

[*]Most cassettes and LPs are likely to have 2 sides. There is no provision in that proposal for numbering the tracks on the "B side" correctly.

Once recorded, B-sides become irrelevant. CD's have no B-side and unless you were recording back to cassette, the info "B-side" no longer has any use.

[*]The proposal does NOT require that the metadata has to be entered between the export dialog step and the actual export - that appears to be an interpretation that you have superimposed on top of what has been requested by users.

That's the only way it will work for most users. They use "export multiple" to go and get a coffee. Or a beer. And when they come back, they 'll manually edit the metadata, probably in the destination software. Or not.

If multi-export was to stop between exports, it would kind of defeat it's purpose, unless you make this a second option in the export dialog box.

[*]The main feature, as logged on the wiki is already present in the current version of Audacity. If you turn off the "Show metadata tags prior to export step" option in preferences, then the behaviour is as it was in Audacity 1.2.6. The metadata is passed through to all exported files automatically. The only part that is missing is the bit in parentheses at the end, but if a user is going to "forget" to add metadata, might they not also forget to check the checkbox?[/list]
Rather than presenting this option in the Export dialog, wouldn't it be better to present it as an option in the Metadata dialog when performing Export Multiple?
That is:
The metadata dialog opens by default as it does now, and there is an option (off by default) to
"Apply this metadata to all exported tracks (track number will increment)".

Yes. Track number increment is easy to implement, I expect, and users would expect that to work, I reckon.

[steve]

Once recorded, B-sides become irrelevant. CD's have no B-side and unless you were recording back to cassette, the info "B-side" no longer has any use.

What I mean is:
If you have an album on tape or Vinyl and it has 7 tracks on "side A" and 6 tracks on "side B".
If you record "side A", add labels, Export Multiple, then you get tracks 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7.
If you then record "side B", add labels, Export Multiple, then wouldn't you want the track numbers to be 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13?
What we currently get, and what shows up in an MP3 player if you sort the tracks of the album by track number is:
1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7.
rather than;
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13.

What I would suggest is that the user should be able to enter "8" as the first track number when exporting "side B", and for the tracks to then be numbered:
8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13

[cyrano]

Yes, Steve. If possible that should even be default.

Why?

Not because most users will do vinyl/cassette. But because it forces them to look at the metadata fields and see if the counter would need to be reset to one. If it matters to them, of course. If it doesn't they can disable the whole shebang.

Porting over the last track number would even cover the unlikely fringe use of numbering all your exports consecutively, even if these don't all come from the same source media.

Having the correct metadata is one of the reasons I usually record in Boom Recorder. Most people wouldn't consider this program as it even doesn't allow you to open and play a recording. Once it's closed, it's closed. Boom Recorder has a lot of options for metadata and even a separate automatical metadata export. That export can be txt, html, xml...

It's a one trick pony, of course. Not something to be implemented entirely in Audacity, but worth a look to see what matters to professional location recordists. And there's a time limited demo (Mac only, I'm afraid):
http://www.vosgames.nl/products/BoomRecorder/

[waxcylinder]

Ever since I started out with Audacity many moons ago for LP and tape conversion the labels I have always assigned in Audacity take the form:

<track no.> <song name> - < artiste>

I always have Audacity Metadata switched off and manage the metadata in iTunes after the import of the WAV file(s) imported into iTunes after export from Audacity.

Partly this was because I started out by also making CDs and this taxonomy kept the files nicely in the right order for burning - but also I discovered it was much easier to fix up the metadata in iTunes and/or Windows Explorer thna messa round with the metadata dialogues in Audacity.

Peter

[Gale Andrews]

just enter the common metadata once at the expected time when the metadata editor pops up.

In 1.2.6 it doesn't pop up. It has to be opened by the user prior to export.

It really does not matter given 1.2.6 is history, but for first time export in an unsaved project yes indeed Metadata Editor pops up.

Record a minute or so.

Add 10 labels.

File > Export Multiple. Choose format and location and Export. Tags dialogue pops up. Enter Artist, Album, Genre and Comments *once*. Press OK *once*. Lo and behold. Each exported file has that common metadata. That is how it should work in current Audacity, if the user does not change the suggested off-by-default option to "Show Metadata Tags Editor for each file".

I know if you export a second time in 1.2.6, the Tags dialogue does not pop up but just uses the stored metadata. I do not want that and have never suggested that.


Gale