Zoom Normal (Cmd+2) cursor position

[steve]

The two points about current behaviour that bother me are:
1) A currently visible cursor should remain on screen after Zoom Normal.
2) Mouse Wheel should allow zooming in white space beyond the end of the track.

I would be happy with Zoom normal being consistent with Zoom in and Zoom out (depending on whether Zoom Normal is zooming in or out), and allowing mouse wheel zooming in the white space beyond the end of the track.

I would NOT want fixing the above two items to be conditional on implementing additional changes / enhancements.

[Gale Andrews]

The two points about current behaviour that bother me are:
1) A currently visible cursor should remain on screen after Zoom Normal.
2) Mouse Wheel should allow zooming in white space beyond the end of the track.

I would be happy with Zoom normal being consistent with Zoom in and Zoom out (depending on whether Zoom Normal is zooming in or out)

Please define what "being consistent" means because that is important for the proposal. Does it mean that Zoom Normal centres the view (pinned to zero), except when there is transport, Zoom Normal centres the playback or recording cursor?

And given Zoom In/Out do not consistently centre the playback/recording cursor now, should the Proposal fix that?

If that is what we want, fine. It would be "consistent" behaviour, but we must accept that the selection edge or cursor position may move after zoom normal. Even if that was not part of the original complaint, it is part of my complaint. The lack of a keyboard method to zoom on the cursor/selection start or selection end bothers me greatly.

IMO, losing the selection edge because Zoom In/Out can only centre the selection is just as inconvenient as the poor behaviour of Zoom Normal. Both problems cause you to lose what you are looking at. So both fixes should be part of the proposal IMO, and so should the mousewheel zoom after the end of the project.


Gale

[steve]

Please define what "being consistent" means

If the current zoom level shows a greater time region than "normal", then Zoom Normal behaves like "Zoom In".
If the current zoom level shows a lesser time region than "normal", then Zoom Normal behaves like "Zoom Out".
In both cases, the resulting time duration shown will be "normal" (about 14 seconds on my screen when the Audacity window is maximised).

And given Zoom In/Out do not consistently centre the playback/recording cursor now, should the Proposal fix that?

Are you talking about when there is a selection, or no selection?

IMO, losing the selection edge because Zoom In/Out can only centre the selection is just as inconvenient as the poor behaviour of Zoom Normal.

Depending on what you are doing, it may not be the most convenient behaviour to zoom in on the middle of a selection, but in my opinion that "inconvenience" is by no means comparable with the disorientation of being thrown to the start of the track and totally losing sight of the cursor position.

[Gale Andrews]

Please define what "being consistent" means

If the current zoom level shows a greater time region than "normal", then Zoom Normal behaves like "Zoom In".
If the current zoom level shows a lesser time region than "normal", then Zoom Normal behaves like "Zoom Out".
In both cases, the resulting time duration shown will be "normal" (about 14 seconds on my screen when the Audacity window is maximised).

So am I correct that is not the same as my definition, which was:

Zoom Normal centres the view (pinned to zero), except when there is transport, Zoom Normal centres the playback or recording cursor

Currently if the cursor or selection is off-screen, zoom in/out causes the time position that was centred in the view to drift sideways. Should not the time position remain centred where possible? It is not obvious what rule is being applied. Are we still centering the unseen cursor or selection?

And given Zoom In/Out do not consistently centre the playback/recording cursor now, should the Proposal fix that?

Are you talking about when there is a selection, or no selection?

Both. Again, it is not obvious what rule is being applied. If the playback/recording cursor is "somewhere" near the start of the visible track, zoom in "usually" puts the playback cursor a little bit farther to right, but not centred until you have zoomed in several more times.

Similarly, if the playback/recording cursor is "somewhere" near the end of the visible track, Zoom Out "usually" puts the playback cursor a little bit farther to left, but not centred until you have zoomed out several more times.

An example. Audacity is maximised (1024 px screen width). I have 1 mins 50 seconds to 6 mins 50 seconds visible of a 10 minute track. The selection is from 2 mins 0 seconds to 2 minutes 30 seconds.
With no playback, if I zoom in once then as expected the view is centred on 2 minutes 15 seconds. The visible track is now about 1 minutes 0 seconds to 3 minutes 30 seconds.

But if I play the track from the same starting view and zoom level (1 mins 50 seconds to 6 mins 50 seconds visible, selection from 2 mins 0 seconds to 2 minutes 30 seconds) and then zoom in once immediately, the selection and hence the playback cursor nudges rightwards a little rather than being centred. The visible track area becomes 1 mins 45 seconds to 4 mins 15 seconds, centred on 3 minutes 0 seconds.

Not appalling, but why the difference? Is the zoom-on-playback behaviour in that example better than centering on the selection, which we would do if not playing? Is it better than centering the playback cursor?

IMO, losing the selection edge because Zoom In/Out can only centre the selection is just as inconvenient as the poor behaviour of Zoom Normal.

Depending on what you are doing, it may not be the most convenient behaviour to zoom in on the middle of a selection, but in my opinion that "inconvenience" is by no means comparable with the disorientation of being thrown to the start of the track and totally losing sight of the cursor position.

A cursor is the point of interest. A selection edge where you only have one edge visible is the point of interest. Both are "totally lost sight of".

Yes it depends what you are doing. I work with the end of a selection a lot. You (Steve) would use mousewheel zoom on the edge, I assume. I find it fiddly to get the mouse positioned exactly on the edge, so I want to use the keyboard. As of now I need the extra step of CTRL + [ or CTRL + ] after the zoom. It's wasteful and disorientating (in my opinion).

The lack of flexible keyboard zoom and lack of keyboard centering of the cursor could indeed be called another proposal, but part of that is definitely analogous to "losing what you are looking at". I could call mousewheel scroll behaviour at the end of the project an add-on that should be a separate proposal, even though you can lose what you are looking at due to that.


Gale

[cmac185]

Just an observation on this discussion and a suggestion.

We all agree that we want consistency. Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems to me that the first problem to solve is what rules need to be in place for Zoom In and Zoom Out. I am hearing, from the comments, that the details of the original rules for Zoom In/Out apparently are lost in time so no one knows for sure what the original intent was for those two. If the rules for Zoom In/Out are defined then Zoom Normal can be made more or less consistent with Zoom In/Out depending on how the developers want to handle the cases of cursors near the ends of the track or selections off to one side.

My vote would be for:

- Zoom In/Out to put the cursor/selection centered on the track display if at all possible, and if not then as close to center as reasonable. The cursor, Play if there is no Edit cursor otherwise the Edit cursor, should be centered on the display when Zoom In/Out is invoked. Presently it seems to try to do that, but is somewhat inconsistent as especially Gale has noted. If a selection is centered and is larger than the zoom view then Zoom Out could easily bring it back into view with it still be centered. Possibly this is a place where a modifier key could define the left edge or right edge of the selection as the centering point for Zoom Normal.

If the above is established then Zoom Normal should follow the same rules, i.e. keep everything centered if possible. Its function is to be a quick zoom to a useful level, as defined by the user, with the least possible left/right movement of the point/area of interest except for centering if not already centered. Its present default zoom level is pretty good, but depending on what is being edited being able to set a different default Zoom Normal level would be useful.

One parting comment: I agree that the worst behavior is to lose your cursor or selection off screen. That is frustrating to the extreme. Happened to me last night and had to zoom way out to find it.

Cliff

[Gale Andrews]

Looking what keyboard zoom in / out do now when scrubbing, zoom in will often make playback go from forwards to reverse when the pointer is in the left-hand half of the waveform, and zoom out will often make playback go from reverse to forwards when the pointer is in the right-hand half of the waveform.

Mousewheel zoom when scrubbing seems to preserve the scrub direction. Much better, in my opinion. Perhaps keyboard zoom when scrubbing should have that purpose too?


Gale

[Gale Andrews]

It seems to me that the first problem to solve is what rules need to be in place for Zoom In and Zoom Out.

I agree entirely. I doubt a proposal that simply has Zoom Normal do what Zoom In/Out do now will be a thoroughgoing solution. It will address some major problems but could make new ones in some scenarios.

The cursor, Play if there is no Edit cursor otherwise the Edit cursor, should be centered on the display when Zoom In/Out is invoked.

Do you think a zoom should, when there is no transport, force an off-screen edit cursor back into view? That would be quite a change in behaviour. I don't like that idea. I think we should keep the current view position centred, in that case.

I agree that the worst behavior is to lose your cursor or selection off screen. That is frustrating to the extreme. Happened to me last night and had to zoom way out to find it.

If it's a selection you can (on Mac) use COMMAND + [ or COMMAND + ] to get it back in one step. I have to get my selection edges back that way after most zoom ins, not just with Zoom Normal.


Gale

[waxcylinder]

And let us not forget that if we ever get around to implementing Phase-2 of: http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Propo ... om_Toolbar

then there would be a further zoom level to worry about in this context:
... proposed user settable zoom level button - double actual size - the P is intended to indicate Preset. With this the user could be at their favored zoom level at that time, then press right-click on that button to store that preset. Then subsequent left-clicks of that button would return the user to the preset zoom level. And the preset can be reset any time the user chooses.
This is often mentioned on the forum where Gale wrote: "This is the quite common request for zoom presets ..."

But I suspect that whatever we end up deciding for Zoom Normal behaviours will also apply to a user settable favoured zoom level.

Peter.

[steve]

Currently if the cursor or selection is off-screen, zoom in/out causes the time position that was centred in the view to drift sideways.

It looks to me that when the cursor is off-screen, zoom is centred on the middle of the waveform area of the track.

[steve]

Do you think a zoom should, when there is no transport, force an off-screen edit cursor back into view?

No.