Lock tool bar arrangement

[cmac185]

Responding to Steve's idea of a more scalable arrangement, I disagree totally. I tried to get that arrangement and try as I might I could not get that exact arrangement and when I got close to it and resized the window just a little it rearranged everything. There's no ideal arrangement that will stay when window sizes change. Not only does Audacity move the tool bars based on window size, but it moves them unnecessarily. I can get the arrangement I like at only one window size. Expand it even a quarter inch and the volume bar shifts up to the top line. Why????? There is no need to move it! Space is not a problem, why mess with what is there?

I don't know if those who make decisions regarding usability actually do production work with Audacity and have occasion to resize windows, but I would think they would find the same frustrations with the movements of the tool bars as is being discussed here.

Cliff

[steve]

Can someone explain what makes locking the tool bars location impossible?

It's not "impossible", but the behaviour (algorithm) must be precisely defined so that it works in all cases. The current algorithm IS precisely defined and does work in all cases, though (clearly) not in a way that everyone finds ideal.

What about this?
- With the Lock option if the Audacity team felt that if one ran out of space for the tool bars they had to be rearranged, then include that in the Lock logic. I.e., as long as there is adequate space to keep the present arrangement then keep it at the current sizes (no scaling) even if the window size is increased. If the window size goes too small to fit all the tool bars as they are presently arranged and sized then force Auto Arrange. This would require Audacity to note and remember the arrangement when the Lock option was selected so that as soon as there was room (if rearrangement had been forced by small window size) that would restored as the default arrangement. Would that work?

You would need an option somewhere for locking the current arrangement - where would that go? what would that look like? what would be the default state? how does the user turn it on/off? how do you make it clear to users that it only locks for larger window size and not for smaller window size?

[steve]

I tried to get that arrangement and try as I might I could not get that exact arrangement

Why not? What prevented you?

[cmac185]

I'll try to reply to both of Steve's questions in this one post.

You would need an option somewhere for locking the current arrangement - where would that go? what would that look like? what would be the default state? how does the user turn it on/off? how do you make it clear to users that it only locks for larger window size and not for smaller window size?

I would put it in the Preferences under the Interface tab. It seems to me that all that is needed are two check boxes 1. a "Lock Tool Bar Locations to current locations" check box. Default state would be unchecked, i.e. do the auto arranging that is currently being done. By checking the box Audacity would record the current locations of the tool bars and that would become the default arrangement. Unchecking the box would re-enable the auto arranging. 2. a "Notify me when tool bar visibility will be impacted by window size." check box. With this checked a popup window would pop up when the window size was reduced enough to impact the visibility of a tool bar. Default would be on. The popup would explain that the window size was too small to accommodate all the tool bars and does the user wish Audacity to rearrange them to fit Yes/No. It would also have a check box to "make this my default response" so the user wouldn't have to respond every time if they wished. Default setting would be to auto arrange, but the user would have to click on OK to activate his chosen response. Also another check box on the popup to "Don't show me this again" so the user wouldn't have to see the popup every time and the selected response (rearranging or not) would happen automatically without requiring user input once that dialog had been dismissed via OK. When they clicked this option then the check box in Preferences to show the popup would become unchecked. That way if they wanted to see it again they could re-enable the popup. The default response they had checked, if they did, would remain regardless of whether the popup came up or not unless the "Lock Arrangement" box was unchecked then everything would go back to default.

I think I've cover all the logic bases, but if I've missed some please point them out.

Regarding making how it works clear to the user - the popup would make it clear to the user what is happening and why and leave the results up to him. I think we have to assume a certain level of reasonableness in the user that when he checks the "Lock arrangement" box that he realizes that things will stay as they are and logically all will be fine with larger window sizes. They will for sure see it the first time they resize. If he goes smaller he should intuitively realize that there will be an impact on visibility/usableness of the tools and the popup will give him the option to solve the problem immediately and for the future as well if he so chooses. A note or tool tip type popup could be added to the Preferences lines with the check boxes mentioning that reducing window size could impact tool visibility. A fuller explanation should also be put in the Help, FAQ and the User Manual.

cmac185 wrote:
I tried to get that arrangement and try as I might I could not get that exact arrangement


Why not? What prevented you?

Glad you asked as this issue is part of the auto arrange frustration. It depends on window size and Level Meter sizes and playing around until something happens to fall into place how you want it. I played around some more with window size and finally got it to go to your arrangement by setting the window to 13 seconds, but expand the window to 14 seconds like you have and it rearranges and moves the Volume bar from the beginning of the third row to the right hand end of the second row. No real improvement in scaleability. One second wider causes rearranging. I wouldn't call that improvement. I notice that you are running Windows and I am on a Mac so that may account for slight scale differences.

Cliff

[steve]

I notice that you are running Windows

I'm on Linux and that is Audacity 2.1.2 alpha.

by setting the window to 13 seconds, but expand the window to 14 seconds like you have and it rearranges and moves the Volume bar from the beginning of the third row to the right hand end of the second row.

You don't have the meters wide enough. Drag the meters a little wider and everything should stay in place.

Re. "Locking".
I can see potential benefit in your proposal, but I think that some aspects would be unpopular. In particular, many users actively dislike pop-up warnings and describe them as "nag screens". That would of course be mitigated by a "don't show again" option, but it is perhaps surprising how many users dismiss (permanently) important messages without reading them, so I'm still not keen on "hiding" toolbars, even if there is a clear message given when it happens.

Perhaps I could suggest an alternative approach, which is to have "toolbar rows".
Basically how this would work is that the user can add "toolbar and button containers". These would be like empty toolbars, into which the user can put other toolbars and/or individual buttons. You could then, for example, have three full-screen width "containers", one below the other, and drag a few pre-defined toolbars into each of these containers. The toolbar containers do not automatically resize - only manually.

Code: Select all

______________________________________________
|_______________Audacity______________________|
|                                             |
|                                             | (empty container) 
|_____________________________________________|
| ____________   ______________               |
| |_(toolbar)_|  |__toolbar____|              | (container with 2 toolabars)
|_____________________________________________|
|                                             |

[cmac185]

You don't have the meters wide enough. Drag the meters a little wider and everything should stay in place.

Ok. Expanded the meters and it'll stay put down to about 13 1/2 seconds. Below that it generates another row and puts stuff there, but at least I can go to full screen without it changing.

Re. "Locking".
I can see potential benefit in your proposal, but I think that some aspects would be unpopular. In particular, many users actively dislike pop-up warnings and describe them as "nag screens". That would of course be mitigated by a "don't show again" option, but it is perhaps surprising how many users dismiss (permanently) important messages without reading them, so I'm still not keen on "hiding" toolbars, even if there is a clear message given when it happens.

I realize the issue of popups and was a little reticent in proposing same, but it logically seems to be the clearest way to address the issue. If the popup was not used and there was just a lock option in Preferences and a note that when the screen got too small it would auto arrange that could work. At least that way the user wouldn't have the frustration of the tool bars moving when there was no need.

Perhaps I could suggest an alternative approach, which is to have "toolbar rows".
Basically how this would work is that the user can add "toolbar and button containers". These would be like empty toolbars, into which the user can put other toolbars and/or individual buttons. You could then, for example, have three full-screen width "containers", one below the other, and drag a few pre-defined toolbars into each of these containers. The toolbar containers do not automatically resize - only manually.

Code: Select all
______________________________________________
|_______________Audacity______________________|
| |
| | (empty container)
|_____________________________________________|
| ____________ ______________ |
| |_(toolbar)_| |__toolbar____| | (container with 2 toolabars)
|_____________________________________________|
| |

This has definite possibilities as well. If I understand what you are proposing the number of these "containers" would be user selectable and then the contents would be user defined by dragging tool bars/buttons from somewhere into the desired order and location, correct? Maybe you could have a popup window (there I go with that bad word again) like FireFox has to drag tools from for its tool bars. Also there would be no auto arranging so the arrangement stays the same regardless of window size.

What would happen when the window size was reduced so the tools in the containers don't fit on screen anymore? Something like "word wrap" in a text editor where the problem tool bar was pushed down and the container height increased to accomodate it? That way it stays in the same container at least.

Would this be a user selectable option with the current auto arranging as the default?

I very much like the idea that the user can arrange things without having to fight the auto arrange system. From what I see here I would prefer it over my solution. Maybe you could flesh it out into more detail.

Cliff

[steve]

If I understand what you are proposing the number of these "containers" would be user selectable and then the contents would be user defined by dragging tool bars/buttons from somewhere into the desired order and location, correct?

Yes. Each "container" is a "DIY toolbar" that you can put buttons and/or other toolbars into.

What would happen when the window size was reduced so the tools in the containers don't fit on screen anymore?

The "container toolbars" behave like other toolbars, so the same as happens when the window size is too small for any other toolbar - the toolbar is truncated on the right-hand end.

If there are two (or more) "container toolbars" on the same horizontal row, then the container that is rightmost will drop down to the next row down (as happens with current toolbars.

The benefit for your use case is that you can make your containers the full width of the maximised Audacity window, and fill them with just enough so that you can see everything when the Audacity window is at the smallest size that you use. When the window is maximised there will be empty space to the right of the the container contents.

The main benefit for me (and I guess other users too), is that I can design my own custom toolbars with just the buttons that I use.

Maybe you could flesh it out into more detail.

In reality I doubt that we will see any of these solutions in the near future, though there certainly is a demand for more customisation ability for toolbars. When I get time I'll mock-up some pictures to show how it might work. I believe that one of the lead developers is working on some "drag and drop" functionality, so we may be able to make use of that.

[cmac185]

Sounds good. Please keep me in the loop as you work it out.

Cliff

[Gale Andrews]

Thanks, Steve. So basically the containers are subdivisons of the upper tooldock area, but each container could also be undocked?

I dislike the "jumping around" when expanding the windows but see the need for it when reducing.

I would not be keen on the Locked Toolbar idea and popup, either, for the reasons Steve gave. I suspect if turned on simplistically on top of the current system it could be as annoying in its way as what we have now.

Two ideas for Cliff. When expanding the window with the mouse, I sometimes find that I can defeat the algorithm moving meter toolbars aligned side-by-side by stopping the expand before complete, and filling up the space created with toolbars I am less fussed if they are not in the same row.

If I simply undock all the toolbars in the upper tooldock area, and line them up in rows above Selection Toolbar then I have a "locked toolbar container" that stays put when resizing the window. And there is no horizontal truncation when resizing down because toolbars stop outside the window if necessary. If I could put this amalgam of toolbars directly underneath the Timeline and have the tracks fit underneath it, it would be quite nice.

I wonder how DAW's with lots of graphical toolbars manage this?


Gale

[steve]

So basically the containers are subdivisons of the upper tooldock area, but each container could also be undocked?

That's how I imagine it.

I dislike the "jumping around" when expanding the windows but see the need for it when reducing.

I agree, but imo for "lock" to apply only to an increasing window size and not to reducing the window size seems strange and potentially confusing.

I suspect if turned on simplistically on top of the current system it could be as annoying in its way as what we have now.

I'm sure that some users would find it so.

I wonder how DAW's with lots of graphical toolbars manage this?

I think that DAWs are usually operated full-screen (or on multiple monitors), so it's not an issue. A common arrangement in studio environments is to have the track window on one monitor (full-screen) and everything else on a second monitor display.