Audacity Forum

... in the same mouse gesture which creates it.

It is, I am told, Not Just Me who has trouble with the fact that creating a new inflection point in Envelope Edit mode *nearly always moves it from the level it was at*.

Since the general use case is "create two points next to one another, and only adjust one of them", this is time consuming and annoying. Separating "create a new inflection point where one is not" from "adjust an existing inflection point's position or level" would solve this problem, and probably without all that much code (says the guy who doesn't know the codebase .

Since adjusting envelopes is -- I would think -- a *very* common procedure, reducing it's irritation factor as much as possible would seem to be a good investment of the time of someone who knows that code intimately.

[Asking me if I'm volunteering to do so would not be a good investment of *anyone's* time; I'm a designer/analyst by trade, not a coder, I don't have time to marry the codebase, and if I *had* a patch, I would have attached it. ]

Are you talking about control points (white circles) or something else?

Please write out steps 1, 2, 3, to reproduce the problem so we know what issue you are addressing.

For example, are you talking about adding a new control point at the top or the bottom without affecting the envelope, which we know is hard to do?

Is the request to lock a specific control point, or a selection of them? What is the use case for doing that?


Gale

There is some background information regarding this feature request here: http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic ... 92#p265592

steve wrote:There is some background information regarding this feature request here: http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic ... 92#p265592

Actually I already read that and still don't really understand what the exact issue is. Do you, framed as something that could be added as a feature request?

Adding a new envelope point other than at val="1.000000000000" is meant to change the envelope.

If you adjust one set of points and another set of points moves, that would be a bug.

Is the issue that when dragging a point laterally, it it is hard to keep the point at the same amplitude level, so the request is a lock at the amplitude level?

I see in Wiki Feature Requests:

CTRL or ALT + click creates a control point but doesn't alter the envelope: (4 votes) (it currently starts dragging the envelope straight away which isn't very helpful). If you are far from a control point and want to tweak the envelope, but don't want to add a new control point, you need to go back to the control point.

but I don't understand what is written there unless they only have one control point.

What do you see as the use case for adding control points that don't alter the envelope? When you first run envelope tool, should it add some points at val="1.000000000000"?


Gale

1) Create an audio track
2) Switch to Envelope Edit mode
3) Click on the provided flat 100% envelope to add a control point

Expected behavior:

A new control point will be created on the envelope, at the level at which the envelope line was when clicked upon.

Observed behavior:

When the new control point is created, it moves in volume-level, usually down, since that's the direction in which most pointing devices are moved by the clicking of the necessary button. In moving, it drags the entire segment before or after it along, contrary to the user's desire.

Perceived problem:

Creation and adjustment of control points are both enabled in the same gesture.

Suggested solution:

Do not permit adjustment of a newly-created control point until the mouse button has been released.

Baylink wrote:Do not permit adjustment of a newly-created control point until the mouse button has been released.

Thanks for explaining clearly.

Wouldn't that be unpopular, that you can't drag a control point on first creation to fine adjust it?

How would you request to implement it, by a Preference, a modified click, or something else? We would have to make a corresponding change to adding control points in Equalization.

An alternative would be not to move the pointing device when you left-click. Probably impossible with a touchpad or an oversensitive mouse, but many people probably don't click at exactly the correct point in the first place. In my opinion that is not helped by failing to visibly create the envelope point when you click. I would vote for being able to see the point on click.

Personally I mostly use a keypad mouse so I don't even receive your problem (the click action cannot move the mouse).


Gale

Actually, you don't have to move the mouse to create and simultaneously "adjust" a control point on creation of the point. Just click somewhere below the 100% envelope line. It is very difficult to add a point exactly at the 100% level. I rarely use envelopes, but when I do I've gotten into the habit of clicking then moving the control point (carefully! don't drag it off the track or you'll delete it!) back up to the 100% level.

A further complication is that there are two "places" where control points can be placed. The trouble is you can't see the lower "control line" unless the waveform has a level of less than 50%. And it's not even a "line", just a change from dark grey to light grey. IIRC this lower control line was added so envelopes could go to +2.

IMO the whole envelope paradigm in Audacity should be re-examined. We could start by separating creation/deletion/adjustment, requiring a modifier key to add or delete control points. This would address the OP's concern - CTRL+click adds a control point on the line which you can now adjust with an unmodified click-drag. The "drag the control point off the track to delete" is non-standard and can lead to inadvertent deletion of a control point (yes, you can get it back with undo but you shouldn't have to do that).

There are other issues IMO, but I'll save those for if and when we have a broader discussion about envelopes.

-- Bill

I didn't suggest "not visibly creating" the point when you click. I just suggested that you be required to click and release to create it, and then click it again to adjust it.

I'm not sure why it is that Audacity is so sensitive to this -- I don't think this happens to me when editing envelopes in Audition CS5.5. for example, or in MixMeister 6 -- but it is, and Steve tells me that I'm not alone; it happens to lots of people.

Perhaps applying a mickey scale factor to the drag instead, so that it's adjustable, but much more slowly? Or a delay: the drag is disabled after the creation for 500ms? It's clear that - at least current - mice are overly sensitive for this work.

I suppose you'd want it in preferences; my personal design decision would be to have it default to "On" (reclick required to edit) and let people for whom it's not a problem turn it off.

> Wouldn't that be unpopular, that you can't drag a control point on first creation to fine adjust it?

I can't imagine that it would be as unpopular as having it be nearly impossible to do the primary thing I (and I'd assume, most others) *do* with a control point: create 2, adjacent to one another, and drag the *second* one to the level I want it at. If creating the first one, which I want to not move, *always* moves, and undoing it *undoes the creation of the control point*, it's going to annoy me rather badly -- and it does.

> An alternative would be not to move the pointing device when you left-click

I'll go out of my way not to be annoyed by that, but it's a pretty silly thing to say. Of *course* I'm not trying to move the pointing device; that's the entire point here.

billw58 wrote:Actually, you don't have to move the mouse to create and simultaneously "adjust" a control point on creation of the point. Just click somewhere below the 100% envelope line. It is very difficult to add a point exactly at the 100% level. I rarely use envelopes, but when I do I've gotten into the habit of clicking then moving the control point (carefully! don't drag it off the track or you'll delete it!) back up to the 100% level.

Guy L Steele is quoted as noting that "If the programmer can simulate a construct faster then the compiler can implement the construct itself, then the compiler writer has blown it badly."

Your comment, Bill, suggests the same thing to me: this is a problem which may be easy to *figure out* an adaptation to avoid, but that doesn't make it not be a problem.

If I'm dipping music for a VO, I should be able to just click on two adjacent points on the envelope, spanning the beginning of the voice track, and drag the second one down however far I want it, and not have to mess around with outthinking the editor to get it.

A further complication is that there are two "places" where control points can be placed. The trouble is you can't see the lower "control line" unless the waveform has a level of less than 50%. And it's not even a "line", just a change from dark grey to light grey. IIRC this lower control line was added so envelopes could go to +2.

Yeah; I'd learned about that; it is handy in some cases, but it's not germane here.

IMO the whole envelope paradigm in Audacity should be re-examined. We could start by separating creation/deletion/adjustment, requiring a modifier key to add or delete control points. This would address the OP's concern - CTRL+click adds a control point on the line which you can now adjust with an unmodified click-drag. The "drag the control point off the track to delete" is non-standard and can lead to inadvertent deletion of a control point (yes, you can get it back with undo but you shouldn't have to do that).

The latter doesn't bother me too much, and having spent some time getting used to Ardour, I understand that in specialty domains, there sometimes *is* justification for breaking the traditional WIMP paradigm.

But I don't think Ctrl-Click to create is even necessary. If you're going to separate them anyway, then "drag existing" edits, and "click where one isn't" creates only, and that solves the problem without making creating one undiscoverable.

There are other issues IMO, but I'll save those for if and when we have a broader discussion about envelopes.

-- Bill

Indeed.

billw58 wrote:Actually, you don't have to move the mouse to create and simultaneously "adjust" a control point on creation of the point. Just click somewhere below the 100% envelope line.

Exactly, but that assumes people can click at exactly the correct point first time, and currently assuming they don't move the mouse while clicking.

I don't think we should penalise those who can't click at the exact point first time - the default should be to allow drag of an initially created point. By all means add an optional way to create without subsequently moving the point.


Gale