Audacity Forum

Gale Andrews wrote:Mac's have an OPTION key which is similar to ALT on Windows and Linux, except that it is not normally used as a shortcut modifier....

On Windows and Linux, we commonly have "Ctrl", "Shift" and "Alt" available as modifier keys.
Does Mac have three commonly used modifier keys available or only two?

Gale Andrews wrote:So now you've changed your mind and don't want TAB to move to the next/previous clip boundary?

What does that mean?

You have already pointed out that using Tab "breaks the ability of TAB or SHIFT + TAB to move into a label text box from outside a box", which I acknowledged and came up with an alternative. Yes of course I have changed my mind about using the the Tab key in the way that I originally suggested, for reasons already given, so I don't understand why you are reiterating that my most recent proposal differs from my original proposal.

For clarity, what I am now suggesting is:

For both clips and labels, depending on what sort of track has focus:

• Tab / Shift+Tab
  Selects the the next / previous label or clip for editing.
  Label tracks currently do this, audio tracks don't.
• Left / Right cursor keys (no selection)
  Moves the playback cursor left / right.
  Both Label and audio tracks currently do this.
• Left / Right cursor keys (with selection)
  Jump to the start / end of the selection.
  Both Label and audio tracks currently do this.
• Shift+cursor / Ctrl+cursor
  Extend / contract the selected region.
  Both Label and audio tracks currently do this.
• Alt + Cursor
  jump to next label / clip boundary.
  New feature.
• Alt+Shift+Cursor
  Extend selection to the next label / clip boundary
  New feature.
• Alt+Ctrl+Shift+Cursor
  (Awkward to use, but the least useful of these options)
  Contract the selection to the next label / clip boundary
  New feature.

steve wrote:For clarity, what I am now suggesting is:

For both clips and labels, depending on what sort of track has focus:

• Tab / Shift+Tab
  Selects the the next / previous label or clip for editing.
  Label tracks currently do this, audio tracks don't.
• Left / Right cursor keys (no selection)
  Moves the playback cursor left / right.
  Both Label and audio tracks currently do this.
• Left / Right cursor keys (with selection)
  Jump to the start / end of the selection.
  Both Label and audio tracks currently do this.
• Shift+cursor / Ctrl+cursor
  Extend / contract the selected region.
  Both Label and audio tracks currently do this.

On my system, it's actually
Shift+Cursors --> expand selection
Shift+Ctrl+Cursors --> Contract selection

Did you mean that?
Ctrl+Cursors is therefore still available (for anything else).
The new shortcuts with alt added would be a perfect analogus to the existing shortcuts.

• Alt + Cursor
  jump to next label / clip boundary.
  New feature.
• Alt+Shift+Cursor
  Extend selection to the next label / clip boundary
  New feature.
• Alt+Ctrl+Shift+Cursor
  (Awkward to use, but the least useful of these options)
  Contract the selection to the next label / clip boundary
  New feature.

In other words, pressing alt/option along with the traditional keys uses the clip/label boundaries instead of the step size defined by zoom.

Sounds very reasonable to me.

I don't think that we can work with the tab key as an alternative.
Firstly, each combination needs shift for a backwards motion since we have only one key instead of left/right.
Secondly, Ctrl+Tab (import audio) and Ctrl+Shift+Tab (create split) are already assigned (they are doubling conventional shortcuts, as it seems, at least on Windows).
On mac, they fullfill some OS/window operations, I think.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:Mac's have an OPTION key which is similar to ALT on Windows and Linux, except that it is not normally used as a shortcut modifier....

On Windows and Linux, we commonly have "Ctrl", "Shift" and "Alt" available as modifier keys.
Does Mac have three commonly used modifier keys available or only two?

OPTION is perfectly legitimate as a modifier - we already use it in OPTION + COMMAND + V for Edit > Paste Text to New Label (that is, OPTION is used in that shortcut instead of ALT on Windows and Linux and COMMAND is used instead of CTRL).

I don't get the impression OPTION is commonly used as a modifier for a shortcut, any more than ALT is commonly used as a shortcut modifier in Windows (because it is needed to access menus and shortcuts using the keyboard).

CTRL is I think quite often used as a modifier on Mac, particularly with COMMAND. We can't use CTRL on Mac because (as above) we automatically map CTRL modifiers on Windows and Linux to COMMAND on Mac.


Gale

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:So now you've changed your mind and don't want TAB to move to the next/previous clip boundary?

What does that mean? [...] I don't understand why you are reiterating that my most recent proposal differs from my original proposal.

I mean, I thought you strongly wanted TAB to do move to the next boundary. I thought that was a good idea, intuitive and more useful than selecting the audio clip (which you can do now with double-click).

If I understand it, you now want TAB to select the audio clip and use a new ALT + LEFT and ALT + RIGHT to move to the boundary.

I agree TAB usage should do something similar in audio and label tracks. We could still have TAB move to boundaries in label tracks and move the current behaviour of TAB in label tracks to some other key. That may be disruptive for current usage, but I was just a bit surprised you did not suggest that.

One question - do I assume ALT + LEFT and ALT + RIGHT to move to the only boundary of a point label does not open the label?

And Edit > Move Cursor > To Clip End will be ALT + RIGHT, and Edit > Move Cursor > To Clip Start will be ALT + LEFT?

Is Edit > Select > Cursor to Clip End ALT + SHIFT + RIGHT and Edit > Select > Clip Start to Cursor ALT + SHIFT + LEFT?


Gale

Robert J. H. wrote:I don't think that we can work with the tab key as an alternative.
Firstly, each combination needs shift for a backwards motion since we have only one key instead of left/right.
Secondly, Ctrl+Tab (import audio) and Ctrl+Shift+Tab (create split) are already assigned (they are doubling conventional shortcuts, as it seems, at least on Windows).

Those are keys you must have assigned, Robert. CTRL + TAB would be free to cycle forwards into a label and not open it for editing, and CTRL + SHIFT + TAB would be free to cycle backwards into a label and not open it. But...

Robert J. H. wrote:On mac, they fullfill some OS/window operations, I think.

Yes - given we translate CTRL to COMMAND on Mac and COMMAND + TAB is the Mac task switcher, that's out.

Do you find you never want to TAB to a label and open it? I would imagine this is behaviour you may want to change according to whether the labels are finished or not, or if you want to play the label's audio or not, so that having a Preference for it would be inflexible.

Perhaps it would be an item that could be added for the label track dropdown menu, along with a control to automatically create a label by typing in the focused label track or not. I agree a control or preference for autotyping is wanted.


Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:

Robert J. H. wrote:I don't think that we can work with the tab key as an alternative.
Firstly, each combination needs shift for a backwards motion since we have only one key instead of left/right.
Secondly, Ctrl+Tab (import audio) and Ctrl+Shift+Tab (create split) are already assigned (they are doubling conventional shortcuts, as it seems, at least on Windows).

Those are keys you must have assigned, Robert. CTRL + TAB would be free to cycle forwards into a label and not open it for editing, and CTRL + SHIFT + TAB would be free to cycle backwards into a label and not open it. But...

It's not assigned by me.
It is firmly integrated into Audacity.
I've mentioned the Ctrl-shift-Tab behaviour (that's the one for import) to Leland on Devel (during his search for a window switcher) and he confirmed that some "Exception" code exists for this key combination and he added also the behaviour of Ctrl-Tab to this list.

Gale Andrews wrote:

Robert J. H. wrote:On mac, they fullfill some OS/window operations, I think.

Yes - given we translate CTRL to COMMAND on Mac and COMMAND + TAB is the Mac task switcher, that's out.

Do you find you never want to TAB to a label and open it? I would imagine this is behaviour you may want to change according to whether the labels are finished or not, or if you want to play the label's audio or not, so that having a Preference for it would be inflexible.

Perhaps it would be an item that could be added for the label track dropdown menu, along with a control to automatically create a label by typing in the focused label track or not. I agree a control or preference for autotyping is wanted.


Gale

Yes, I vote for a permanent disabling option for the automatic edit mode.

As I said before, there should be a "Force Edit Mode" shortcut (e.g. alt-enter or ctrl-f2 etc) as well, otherwise it won't make sense.
Tabbing and pressing this shortcut is the keyboard paradigm to moving the mouse and clicking into a label.

Also, there are three "automatic edit modes" which should be settable arbitrarily.
- edit mode after (shift-) tab
- edit mode after typing valid characters
- edit mode after down key into label track

The second and third one are the most annoying ones since it is not always predictable wether you really land in edit mode (when working with a screen reader)

It is fairly recent that shortcuts can be assigned to single effects. A whole bunch of those are now assigned to single characters (on my system that is).
The consequence is that you have to decide wether you want convenient shortcuts or automatic label creation.
I regard the latter as something ancient since the introduction of the mentioned feature.
I really wonder how many users do actually use this feature regularly and how much time it would cost them to press Ctrl-b/m before starting typing.

The workflow with the down key is way out of my logical thinking, especially the unlucky decision to bound it to a"Change Focus" key.
Wouldn't it be better to replace it with e.g. pg down. The advantage would be that it could automatically set the focus into the label track when several audio tracks are between the track with focus/cursor and the first label track (as e.g. ctrl-b already does for new labels).


I see the controls rather in the preferences (or a toolbar, similar to snap to?).
I don't know if the dropdown menu accepts check boxes, those would be necessary for the three modes listed above. Even then, The settings would probably not survive one session.
It is clear that the current behaviour would always be the default--on installation.

Robert

Robert J. H. wrote:On my system, it's actually
Shift+Cursors --> expand selection
Shift+Ctrl+Cursors --> Contract selection

Yes, that's what I meant.
I'll have another go:

• Tab / Shift+Tab
  Selects the the next / previous label or clip for editing.
  Label tracks currently do this, audio tracks don't.
• Left / Right cursor keys (no selection)
  Moves the playback cursor left / right.
  Both Label and audio tracks currently do this.
• Left / Right cursor keys (with selection)
  Jump to the start / end of the selection.
  Both Label and audio tracks currently do this.
• Shift+cursor key
  Extend the selected region.
  Both Label and audio tracks currently do this.
• Shift+Ctrl+cursor key
  Contract the selected region.
  Both Label and audio tracks currently do this.
• Alt + cursor key
  jump to next label / clip boundary.
  New feature.
• Alt+Shift+cursor key
  Extend selection to the next label / clip boundary
  New feature.
• Alt+Ctrl+Shift+cursor key
  (Awkward to use, but the least useful of these options)
  Contract the selection to the next label / clip boundary
  New feature.

Robert J. H. wrote:In other words, pressing alt/option along with the traditional keys uses the clip/label boundaries instead of the step size defined by zoom.

Yes, exactly that.

Gale Andrews wrote:One question - do I assume ALT + LEFT and ALT + RIGHT to move to the only boundary of a point label does not open the label?

Yes.

• Alt + cursor key
  jump to next label / clip boundary.
  New feature.

not 'jump to the next label and open the label text for editing'.

Gale Andrews wrote:And Edit > Move Cursor > To Clip End will be ALT + RIGHT, and Edit > Move Cursor > To Clip Start will be ALT + LEFT?

Is Edit > Select > Cursor to Clip End ALT + SHIFT + RIGHT and Edit > Select > Clip Start to Cursor ALT + SHIFT + LEFT?

If you want the commands to also be menu items, then yes those are the key combinations for those commands.

• Alt + cursor key
  jump to next label / clip boundary.
• Alt+Shift+cursor key
  Extend selection to the next label / clip boundary

We are not forced to have menu items for every keyboard command (and we don't).

Robert J. H. wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:

Robert J. H. wrote:I don't think that we can work with the tab key as an alternative.
Firstly, each combination needs shift for a backwards motion since we have only one key instead of left/right.
Secondly, Ctrl+Tab (import audio) and Ctrl+Shift+Tab (create split) are already assigned (they are doubling conventional shortcuts, as it seems, at least on Windows).

Those are keys you must have assigned, Robert. CTRL + TAB would be free to cycle forwards into a label and not open it for editing, and CTRL + SHIFT + TAB would be free to cycle backwards into a label and not open it. But...

It's not assigned by me.
It is firmly integrated into Audacity.
I've mentioned the Ctrl-shift-Tab behaviour (that's the one for import) to Leland on Devel (during his search for a window switcher) and he confirmed that some "Exception" code exists for this key combination and he added also the behaviour of Ctrl-Tab to this list.

I had not heard of those, since they are completely undocumented. They should be added to the Manual then for those OS'es they work on.

But are they working correctly? What I said is still correct, when the focus is on the label track, CTRL + TAB and CTRL + SHIFT + TAB are available, in the sense they do the same as TAB and SHIFT + TAB respectively. But the advertised shortcuts CTRL + I and CTRL + SHIFT + I work when focus is on the label track, so should the unadvertised ones not do so?

Robert J. H. wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:

Robert J. H. wrote:On mac, they fullfill some OS/window operations, I think.

Yes - given we translate CTRL to COMMAND on Mac and COMMAND + TAB is the Mac task switcher, that's out.

Do you find you never want to TAB to a label and open it? I would imagine this is behaviour you may want to change according to whether the labels are finished or not, or if you want to play the label's audio or not, so that having a Preference for it would be inflexible.

Perhaps it would be an item that could be added for the label track dropdown menu, along with a control to automatically create a label by typing in the focused label track or not. I agree a control or preference for autotyping is wanted.


Gale

Yes, I vote for a permanent disabling option for the automatic edit mode.

As I said before, there should be a "Force Edit Mode" shortcut (e.g. alt-enter or ctrl-f2 etc) as well, otherwise it won't make sense.

OK.

Robert J. H. wrote:The workflow with the down key is way out of my logical thinking, especially the unlucky decision to bound it to a"Change Focus" key.
Wouldn't it be better to replace it with e.g. pg down.

PageUp and PageDown are already used for horizontal scrolling of the project.

Robert J. H. wrote:I see the controls rather in the preferences (or a toolbar, similar to snap to?).
I don't know if the dropdown menu accepts check boxes

It could do.


Gale