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Re: "Show Clipping" Options

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:32 pm
by Gale Andrews
steve wrote:
Gale Andrews wrote:In the Analyze Menu?
What could "Label Clipping" in the Analyze menu mean other than "Label(verb) Clipping"?
"Label(noun) Clipping" makes no more sense in the Analyze menu than "Clipping" interpreted as an effect in the Analyze menu.
I don't see that either misinterpretation is more likely than the other.
Why invite any misinterpretation? "Label (noun) Clipping" could be something to do with auto truncation of existing labels.
steve wrote:
Gale Andrews wrote:But then, "Track Splitter" or similar would be a better name for most people's usage of Silence Finder. ;)
except that it doesn't "split tracks" :?
Except that's exactly what users think they are doing - they are splitting album or CD tracks. The FAQ we have is called "How can I split a long recording into multiple files or CD tracks?

I think you had some other suggestion, but I don't recall what it was.


Gale

Re: "Show Clipping" Options

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:40 pm
by steve
Gale Andrews wrote:"Label (noun) Clipping" could be something to do with auto truncation of existing labels.
In the Analyze Menu?
:o ;)
(and what does "Regular Interval Labels" have to do with analysis? :?
Gale Andrews wrote:Except that's exactly what users think they are doing - they are splitting album or CD tracks.
And quite regularly we hear from people that have labelled their recording, exported, burned to CD, and wonder why there is only one track on the CD.
We certainly don't want to reinforce the idea that labelling (in itself) "splits" the track.

Re: "Show Clipping" Options

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:10 pm
by Gale Andrews
Edgar wrote:
Gale Andrews wrote: I'm confused by this - there is only one clipping indicator. See http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/me ... #annotated. I think you are talking about Maximum Peak, which is blue (despite that colour has no meaning in a gradient meter).
No – I'm confused! Someplace along the line the new gradient meters lost the blue color and the maximum peak now paints in whatever color was prevalent at the end of the color bar. This means that if the last segment of the meter was painted red (clipping) the maximum peak indicator will also be painted red. Since the maximum peak indicator is latched this gives the effect of 2 red bars at the extreme end of the meter. With the traditional meter the maximum peak indicator is indeed blue.
I argued that logically, the Maximum Peak indicator in Gradient mode would take its colour from the colour for the level it rested at (like the Recent Peak indicator does) and not be blue. No one AFAICT bought into that complaint, so although I would like what you suggest, it doesn't happen in HEAD for me.

If it did happen (red Maximum Peak against red clipping indicator) I would be banging the table even harder for a more separated clipping indicator.
Edgar wrote:Now that I have spent a few warm cozy days with the meter code, here is what I want:
Show Clipping in the waveform to remain exactly as is – at least by default – color is a fully saturated red, one sample triggers, runs are ignored (sequential clipping draws a big red rectangle). I would give the user ONLY the ability to change the color not the trigger sample number nor painting runs differently.
As I recently posted, I largely agree with you, except that I think making sample runs < 4 samples a different colour or presentation has some strong benefits.

Any configuration for Show Clipping is likely going to mean all clipping configurations going into main Preferences. I doubt that's a good idea.
Edgar wrote:The Analyze Effect could be renamed ("Clipping Finder…" is OK, but I find these "Finder" names clunky). It's interface needs to be reworded so that the user does not need to read the manual to figure out what the controls do.
What do you suggest, using the same number of words?
Edgar wrote:The meters should stay just exactly the way they are with the minor exception of making the vertical indicators wider. Currently there are 3 indicators and all are painted 2 pixels wide. One is momentary (Recent Peak) - make this one 3 pixels wide. The other 2 are latched (Maximum Peak & Clipping); make the Maximum Peak indicator 3 pixels wide and the Clipping indicator 4 pixels wide. This means that the 2 indicators that might possibly be co-drawn with a textual number would only be one pixel wider than currently. Since the text is drawn on top of the indicators (but is anti-aliased) this is only slightly more visually intrusive:
clip.png
I'm zero on 1 px wider for Recent Peak and Maximum Peak, and +1 on 4 px for Clipping Indicator.
Edgar wrote:If we were to unlatch the clipping indicator (-1)
I thought an option to do that was something everyone agreed on. I am -1 on it unlatching by default.
Edgar wrote:it should probably be made even wider than the above 4 – maybe as much as 6 or 8 (or even something between 5 & 9 but proportional to the current width of the meter). If unlatched it should probably flash a couple of times at full saturation then fade very gradually (I have one piece of hardware which does this but without the fade and the latch time is too brief – less than 5 seconds). The latch duration should be at least 5 or more seconds – probably closer to 8 or 10.
I think flashing will lessen chance of acceptance, as might > 4 px. The disappearance/fading itself should be noticeable if user is watching the meters.


Gale

Re: "Show Clipping" Options

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:35 pm
by Gale Andrews
steve wrote:
Gale Andrews wrote:"Label (noun) Clipping" could be something to do with auto truncation of existing labels.
In the Analyze Menu?
:o ;)
Well I would not make that mistake, but others might.
steve wrote:(and what does "Regular Interval Labels" have to do with analysis? :?
... which is a reason that others might.

If you want to rename the four effects to "Label <what we're labelling>" then probably those effects are best kept together.
steve wrote:
Gale Andrews wrote:Except that's exactly what users think they are doing - they are splitting album or CD tracks.
And quite regularly we hear from people that have labelled their recording, exported, burned to CD, and wonder why there is only one track on the CD.
We certainly don't want to reinforce the idea that labelling (in itself) "splits" the track.
I think that's a good point, but as you know we also have a problem that some users can't find the menu item to "label the track splits" at all (because they are looking for a "track splitter" item - their words).

In your effect aimed explicitly at detecting gaps between tracks in recorded albums, you had proposed the name "Album Track Marker". I don't know whether that effect is stillborn now, but perhaps some name starting with "Album" would help here. This would replace Silence Finder, then the "Sound Finder" (whatever we call it) does all the bells and whistles including an option to label silences or sounds.

And yes the "Album Track Marker" could go in a new "Tools" menu instead.


Gale

Re: "Show Clipping" Options

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:38 pm
by Edgar
Gale Andrews wrote:
Edgar wrote:
Gale Andrews wrote: I'm confused by this - there is only one clipping indicator. See http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/me ... #annotated. I think you are talking about Maximum Peak, which is blue (despite that colour has no meaning in a gradient meter).
No – I'm confused! Someplace along the line the new gradient meters lost the blue color and the maximum peak now paints in whatever color was prevalent at the end of the color bar. This means that if the last segment of the meter was painted red (clipping) the maximum peak indicator will also be painted red.
I argued that logically, the Maximum Peak indicator in Gradient mode would take its colour from the colour for the level it rested at (like the Recent Peak indicator does) and not be blue. No one AFAICT bought into that complaint, so although I would like what you suggest, it doesn't happen in HEAD for me.

If it did happen (red Maximum Peak against red clipping indicator) I would be banging the table even harder for a more separated clipping indicator.
Sorry, you're right, it was a change I had made locally. However, I really like it so, +1.

Re: "Show Clipping" Options

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:10 pm
by steve
Gale Andrews wrote:If you want to rename the four effects to "Label <what we're labelling>" then probably those effects are best kept together.
I quite like the original name of "Silence Marker" (something that marks where silences are).
If that type of naming was applied consistently then we would have:
Album Track Marker
Beat Marker
Clipping Marker
Silence Marker
Sound Marker
Gale Andrews wrote:I don't know whether that effect is stillborn now,
No, just delayed.
Gale Andrews wrote:And yes the "Album Track Marker" could go in a new "Tools" menu instead.
As you know, I DO like the idea of a Tools menu, but I'd be tempted to keep "Album Track Marker" in the Analyze menu, because it analyzes the audio and marks the tracks.
Perhaps if it integrated with Export Multiple so that it was doing more than just analying the audio, then I'd probably want to move it to the Tools menu.

Re: "Show Clipping" Options

Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:30 pm
by Edgar
steve wrote: Album Track Marker; Beat Marker; Clipping Marker; Silence Marker; Sound Marker
+.8
Album Track Labeler; Beat Labeler; Clipping Labeler; Silence Labeler; Sound Labeler
(assuming they all create labels)

Re: "Show Clipping" Options

Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 1:13 pm
by waxcylinder
+1 for Album Track Marker

It worked well when I pre-alpha tested it for Steve

And Silence Marker would be useful for me too (I would use it to find a good "noise" sample in webcasts and FM broadcasts for Noise Removal)

Peter.

Re: "Show Clipping" Options

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:56 pm
by Gale Andrews
steve wrote:
Gale Andrews wrote:If you want to rename the four effects to "Label <what we're labelling>" then probably those effects are best kept together.
I quite like the original name of "Silence Marker" (something that marks where silences are).
If that type of naming was applied consistently then we would have:
Album Track Marker
Beat Marker
Clipping Marker
Silence Marker
Sound Marker
It solves the problem of combining the word "Clipping" and "Labels" but "markers" often have the meaning of being in the waveform (at least to users of other audio software).

I would quite strongly prefer "Label <what we're labelling>" myself.

Do we really need Album Track Marker and Silence Marker? I would hope not - or doesn't Album Track Marker draw point labels?
steve wrote:
Gale Andrews wrote:And yes the "Album Track Marker" could go in a new "Tools" menu instead.
As you know, I DO like the idea of a Tools menu, but I'd be tempted to keep "Album Track Marker" in the Analyze menu, because it analyzes the audio and marks the tracks.
Perhaps if it integrated with Export Multiple so that it was doing more than just analying the audio, then I'd probably want to move it to the Tools menu.
Seems good reasoning on the whole, as long as most users can still find it.

Gale

Re: "Show Clipping" Options

Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:20 pm
by steve
Gale Andrews wrote:I would quite strongly prefer "Label <what we're labelling>" myself.
but then the majority of Analyze tools will be listed as "Label <something>" whether that be beats, envelopes, sounds, silences, zero crossings, clipping, regular intervals, or whatever, which makes it harder to visually scan the menu to find the tool that you are looking for.
Gale Andrews wrote:Do we really need Album Track Marker and Silence Marker?
Album Track Marker is designed and optimised for marking tracks on a recorded album. It cannot be expected to work as a general "silence finder", so we need something that works as a general tool. When we have "Album Track Marker" then we won't necessarily need two general tools for marking sounds/silences.