Audacity Forum

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:But if we allow moving clips vertically with the mouse, I think we should allow moving tracks vertically with the mouse.

I think the case is different.
When we drag audio clips, we are dragging "selected" audio clips.

(Currently) when we move tracks, either with the drop down menu command or with the mouse, we are moving the "track with focus" and its selectedness is irrelevant.

I think that we could allow dragging multiple tracks, but for it to make sense it would be a different type of track moving (and using different code). Moving the tracks would depend on "selectedness" and either track focus would then be irrelevant for this type of track moving, or it would be a hybrid of selectedness and focus. The behaviour of this new "type" of track moving, as far as the user is concerned, would be virtually the same as now, but different rules apply. Although there would be additioal functionality, I'm not convinced that it is worth the increased complexity. The current rule is simple: the track with focus is the track that moves.

Is your argument against moving selected tracks up/down by mouse or against doing it all (so you are against a menu method also)?

I agree there is less scope for misunderstanding when using a menu command, but I think a hybrid method where the selected tracks move vertically if the mouse is over a selected track, otherwise only the pointed-to track moves, is intuitive. I also think that the rule decided on should be the same as when dragging clips vertically. To me the greater unintuitiveness is that selected multiple tracks/clips don't move up or down.

Also as a by product we would get a modifier to not change selectedness when clicking on the Track Control Panel. Or we allow Time Shift Tool to drag tracks up/down and make that the method not to change selectedness.


Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:Is your argument against moving selected tracks up/down by mouse or against doing it all (so you are against a menu method also)?

No problem with "Tracks > Move Selected Tracks Up / Down". Quite useful in that it allows tracks to be moved using a keyboard shortcut.
One slight problem is that I don't think we would be able to gray out the commands when selected tracks can't move (for example if all tracks are selected).

I don't see a strong use case for dragging multiple tracks with the mouse, but I do see lots of problems, so imho we would be better spending time on bug fixes and enhancements that have clear user benefit.

Gale Andrews wrote:To me the greater unintuitiveness is that selected multiple tracks/clips don't move up or down.

I'd like for multiple selected clips to be vertically draggable, but it looks pretty difficult to me.

I'm still voting for mouse dragging of selected tracks up and down (difficult or not) but also for using a menu item to do that.

Vertical mouse drag of multiple tracks would save time over vertical drag of single tracks, and I think it is unintuitive that you can mouse drag multiple selected tracks horizontally but not vertically.

From a code perspective, would finding a solution to vertical mouse drag of multiple selected clips also enable vertical drag of multiple selected tracks?


Gale

Gale Andrews wrote: I think it is unintuitive that you can mouse drag multiple selected tracks horizontally but not vertically.

How do you drag a track horizontally?

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote: I think it is unintuitive that you can mouse drag multiple selected tracks horizontally but not vertically.

How do you drag a track horizontally?

By dragging the clip if that clip is the whole track. Obviously the Track Control Panel does not come along for the ride.


Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:By dragging the clip if that clip is the whole track. Obviously the Track Control Panel does not come along for the ride.

The track and the contents of a track are as different as water in a bucket and a bucket.
You can drag multiple "selected" audio clips left and right, and I agree that (although probably difficult to program) you should also be able to drag them up and down.
The contents of multiple tracks left and right when the contents are selected or Sync-Locked.
You cannot drag single or multiple tracks left or right.

Gale Andrews wrote:Vertical mouse drag of multiple tracks would save time over vertical drag of single tracks

I've worked on many large multi-track projects and personally I've never felt a need for dragging multiple tracks vertically. It seems to me like a lot of extra complication with little to no benefit for users. Apart from any other consideration, there are not usually more than a few tracks visible on screen at the same time so it would be difficult to see what you are doing if you were dragging a lot of tracks vertically.

Gale Andrews wrote:From a code perspective, would finding a solution to vertical mouse drag of multiple selected clips also enable vertical drag of multiple selected tracks?

I doubt it. Clips and tracks are very different things.

steve wrote:The contents of multiple tracks left and right when the contents are selected or Sync-Locked.

I can't understand that sentence.

steve wrote:You cannot drag single or multiple tracks left or right.

You may need to adjust the Manual if you want to insist on that meaning:
http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/to ... #timeshift .

I agree we are dragging the contents and not the container, but it could be confusing not to call the whole contents the "track", and hard to find some other way to describe that.

steve wrote:I've worked on many large multi-track projects and personally I've never felt a need for dragging multiple tracks vertically.

So we can agree to disagree. We don't allow negative votes, but the mouse drag of multiple tracks may not happen in any case. There are lots of votes for things that may never happen.

steve wrote:it would be difficult to see what you are doing if you were dragging a lot of tracks vertically.

Only if the selected tracks are not near to each other.

And you want to vote for a modifier to not change selectedness when clicking on a track to drag it, yes?


Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:

steve wrote: The contents of multiple tracks left and right when the contents are selected or Sync-Locked.

I can't understand that sentence.

That's because there words missing due to bad editing (it was very late when I wrote that).

It should read:
"The contents of multiple tracks can only be dragged left or right when the contents are selected or Sync-Locked."

Gale Andrews wrote:

steve wrote:You cannot drag single or multiple tracks left or right.

You may need to adjust the Manual if you want to insist on that meaning:

I don't think that is necessary. The wording in the manual reads OK to me (in context).
"Tracks" can be an awkward word (in English) when talking about audio due its different meanings. Problems frequently arise when talking about exporting multiple tracks (songs) that are on Audacity tracks (wave tracks) to make CD tracks (.CDA indexed). In the context of discussion about dragging wave/MIDI/label/time tracks in Audacity up and down, I assumed that you meant dragging Audacity tracks rather than "songs". I agree that we should be able to drag multiple "songs" (audio clips) up and down.

Gale Andrews wrote:And you want to vote for a modifier to not change selectedness when clicking on a track to drag it, yes?

That sounds like it could be useful, but I'll stay neutral on that for now. If you are adding it to the wiki I may add my vote later.

Gale Andrews wrote:We don't allow negative votes

which undermines its validity as a measure of popularity.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:And you want to vote for a modifier to not change selectedness when clicking on a track to drag it, yes?

That sounds like it could be useful, but I'll stay neutral on that for now. If you are adding it to the wiki I may add my vote later.

I won't be voting for that or adding it unless someone votes for it here. It would be solved if we could mouse drag multiple tracks up and down, which I'll vote for.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:We don't allow negative votes

which undermines its validity as a measure of popularity.

I know you think that, but it's too messy, and pointless because almost no users give negative votes.

Positive votes in a bullet underneath of the form "Rather than that solution, it would be better to do this" are allowed and quite common.

Audacity Team members are free to add "devcomments" underneath any feature request to explain pros and cons of features that are voted for. The devcomments are quite often used to caution against such and such request or suggest it is not economic to do it in terms of code investment. However a developer would do it anyway if they really wanted that feature so even that argument is not wholly relevant.


Gale

I'm lost following this thread

Is there a Feature Request emerging here - or a proposal forthcoming?

Or can I just archive this thread as is has run-o-round for a month now?

Peter