Audacity Forum

Posted: **Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:40 pm**

Slightly modified suggestion:

"Lame default bit rate" option is a check box.
"Number of channels" options are radio buttons.

Code: Select all

Lame default bit rate (128 / 64 kbps CBR) [_]

Number of channels:
  (o) Same as project (default)
  (_) Force to 1 channel (Mono)
  (_) Force to 2 channels

Alternative suggestions for wording instead of "Force to ... channel(s)":
Mix to ... channel(s)
Render as ... channel(s)
Export as ... channel(s)
Produce ... channel(s)
Make ... channel(s)
other suggestions?

Lame default bit rate:

When enabled (checked):
- Bit rate is 128 or 64 kbps CBR depending on whether exported file is stereo (128) or mono (64).
- Advanced options are greyed out.
- Force number of channels options are not greyed out.
When disabled (not checked):
- Bit rate is set by "Advanced Settings"
- Advanced Settings are not greyed out
- Force number of channels options are not greyed out.

Number of channels:

When "Same as project" is selected:
- Exported file has the same number of channels as the project.
When Force Mono is enabled:
- Force Stereo is disabled (not selected)
- Exported file has 1 channel (mono)
When Force Stereo is enabled:
- Force Mono is disabled (not selected)
- Exported file has 2 channels

"Advanced Options" are as shown in my previous post, which are the same as the current version of Audacity except that the "Channel Mode" options are disabled (greyed out) if "Force to mono" is enabled.

If preferred, "Number of channels:" could be a "choice" widget rather than radio buttons.
If preferred, the "Lame default bit rate" option could be a "choice" widget rather than a check box.

Posted: **Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:45 pm**

steve wrote:Slightly modified suggestion:
Lame default bit rate (128 / 64 kbps CBR)

It should say "joint stereo" for 128 and "mono" for 64 kbps.

steve wrote:"Lame default bit rate" option is a check box.
"Number of channels" options are radio buttons.
Code: Select all
Lame default bit rate (128 / 64 kbps CBR) [_]

Number of channels:
  (o) Same as project (default)
  (_) Force to 1 channel (Mono)
  (_) Force to 2 channels

I think the checkbox for "Lame default" should be left-aligned.

I think my idea of "Set by project" may be better than "Same as project". A project could be more than two channels.

Otherwise, this seems a good arrangement.

I think giving any options to the "Lame default" users and allowing upmixing from mono to stereo are likely to be little used, so adding to the complexity and screen estate, but I don't object. All I will say is that it may be easier to add those later than remove them later.

However given we are having an "advanced" section, how about advanced "mono" options as well as advanced stereo options.

Code: Select all

Stereo Mode: [o] Joint Stereo   [ ] Stereo
Mono Mode:   [ ] Use stereo left  [ ] Use stereo right  [o] Mono

The mono modes are:

-m l : get only the left channel of a stereo signal for a mono output
-m r : get only the right channel of a stereo signal for a mono output
-m m : averages a stereo signal into a mono signal.

The -m l could be useful for people who have recorded only the left of a stereo track (this is necessary with some dual input hardware to get a full height track in Audacity). The proposed -m m would only give them a half volume export, so they would have to split stereo to mono and close the empty track before export.

If the output was to be stereo, the Mono Mode row would be greyed out.

Ideally, I would like to see Mono Mode (if we have it) greyed out not only if the "Number of channels" was set to "Stereo", but also if "Number of channels" was set to the "project" option and the project dictated stereo export. Similarly I would like to see the "Joint Stereo" and "Stereo" options greyed out not only if "Number of channels" was set "Mono" but also if "Number of channels" was set to the "project" option and the project dictated mono export.

steve wrote:Alternative suggestions for wording instead of "Force to ... channel(s)":
Mix to ... channel(s)
Render as ... channel(s)
Export as ... channel(s)
Produce ... channel(s)
Make ... channel(s)
other suggestions?

"Always" instead of "Force to"? I think some idea that conveys "compulsory" is important.

steve wrote:"Advanced Options" are as shown in my previous post, which are the same as the current version of Audacity except that the "Channel Mode" options are disabled (greyed out) if "Force to mono" is enabled.

OK, as long as there is no checkbox for "Advanced Options".

steve wrote:If preferred, "Number of channels:" could be a "choice" widget rather than radio buttons.

If preferred, the "Lame default bit rate" option could be a "choice" widget rather than a check box.

Sorry, do you mean a menu choice, like Snap To? A menu for "Number of channels" would save space and would hide the potential confusion of what "Force" or "Always" meant.

Is "Lame default" enabled by default, which would grey out all else except the "Number of channels" choices?

Gale

Posted: **Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:59 pm**

Gale Andrews wrote:I think giving any options to the "Lame default" users and allowing upmixing from mono to stereo are likely to be little used, so adding to the complexity and screen estate, but I don't object. All I will say is that it may be easier to add those later than remove them later.

Personally I have no interest in the 128/64 kbps option. I have only included that option to please others and to try and get some movement on "bug 285" that has been out in the long grass for over three years.

Gale Andrews wrote:Ideally, I would like to see Mono Mode (if we have it) greyed out not only if the "Number of channels" was set to "Stereo", but also if "Number of channels" was set to the "project" option and the project dictated stereo export. Similarly I would like to see the "Joint Stereo" and "Stereo" options greyed out not only if "Number of channels" was set "Mono" but also if "Number of channels" was set to the "project" option and the project dictated mono export.

Ideally yes, though I've not looked to see how/if that can be done.

Gale Andrews wrote:Sorry, do you mean a menu choice, like Snap To?

Yes, like the new "Snap To" choice or the file format choice in the main Export dialog.

Gale Andrews wrote:Is "Lame default" enabled by default, which would grey out all else except the "Number of channels" choices?

As I'm sure you are aware, my preference would be that the default was "Preset: Standard". As consensus on doing that will not happen in the foreseeable future I am not inclined to reopen that discussion.

It also occurs to me that "Number of channels:" should be greyed out if "Use Custom Mix" is enabled in Preferences. An in-line message saying "Using custom mix" might be nice.

Posted: **Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:05 am**

steve wrote:Personally I have no interest in the 128/64 kbps option. I have only included that option to please others and to try and get some movement on "bug 285" that has been out in the long grass for over three years.

Well, if everyone only coded or supported things they were personally interested I think the project would be the poorer.

Just that issue is quite a common - but understandable - complaint about open source software.

Have you ruled out an option to let LAME decide on sample rate (which is the "optimal output" part of this topic? Logically it seems to me that before we do that we should actually force the bit rate that the user chooses, instead of letting LAME reduce bit rate when user has chosen a high (but legal) bit rate with a low sample rate.

steve wrote:
Gale Andrews wrote:Is "Lame default" enabled by default, which would grey out all else except the "Number of channels" choices?
As I'm sure you are aware, my preference would be that the default was "Preset: Standard".

Actually my recollection was that you wanted CBR 192 kbps or -V 4.

steve wrote:As consensus on doing that will not happen in the foreseeable future I am not inclined to reopen that discussion.

So if are you proposing that the default "Advanced Options" should remain as now, the question still remains what the default "Lame default" state is. If unchecked, there is no change to the current default, which may be preferable. However if checked, naive users with mono input (often speech) may complain less of files being "too large".

steve wrote:It also occurs to me that "Number of channels:" should be greyed out if "Use Custom Mix" is enabled in Preferences. An in-line message saying "Using custom mix" might be nice.

Guess so. I don't think it's a huge issue if that doesn't happen.

Gale

Posted: **Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:41 am**

Gale Andrews wrote:Well, if everyone only coded or supported things they were personally interested I think the project would be the poorer. Just that issue is quite a common - but understandable - complaint about open source software.

Good, so we're demonstrating the fallacy of that complaint, though I would be more than happy for rhajdaj to code it if he wants to and is still around (or anyone else).

Gale Andrews wrote:Have you ruled out an option to let LAME decide on sample rate

No, not "ruled out", but I'd prefer that we implemented what has been agreed and built on that later rather than putting off what has been agreed.

Gale Andrews wrote:Actually my recollection was that you wanted CBR 192 kbps or -V 4.

We agree that my preference is for better sound quality.

Gale Andrews wrote:So if are you proposing that the default "Advanced Options" should remain as now, the question still remains what the default "Lame default" state is. If unchecked, there is no change to the current default, which may be preferable. However if checked, naive users with mono input (often speech) may complain less of files being "too large".

Conversely, if it is checked by default then naive users with mono recordings may complain more about poor sound quality.
As above, I'd prefer that we implement what has been agreed and build on that later rather than putting off what has been agreed. We do not have agreement about changing the MP3 export default format, but the agreed enhancements do not require changing the defaults. If anyone wishes to campaign for different defaults then that can be discussed as a separate issue without kicking this back into the long grass.

Posted: **Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:13 pm**

steve wrote:
Gale Andrews wrote:So if are you proposing that the default "Advanced Options" should remain as now, the question still remains what the default "Lame default" state is. If unchecked, there is no change to the current default, which may be preferable. However if checked, naive users with mono input (often speech) may complain less of files being "too large".
Conversely, if it is checked by default then naive users with mono recordings may complain more about poor sound quality.

The reluctance of myself and others to increase the default bit rate is because we get more complaints about files being too large than we do about poor quality.

CBR at 128 kbps from stereo input and 64 kbps from mono input should give similar quality. Part of the rationale for that feature is that by default, Audacity gives you higher quality for mono input than for stereo input.

steve wrote:As above, I'd prefer that we implement what has been agreed.

The whole point of my question was trying to find out what your proposed default state of the "Lame default" checkbox was, which you didn't say in as many words in any of your posts, therefore nothing had been "agreed". I was trying to kick this "out" of the long grass by getting a straight answer about it.

I think you are saying you want "Lame default" to be off by default. Personally I think this is a very close call and that many users would benefit from it being default. Having slept on it, my vote would be to have it off by default, but the only reason I have for that is that it avoids the confusion of the options as seen in the current release being unavailable.

If it's to be off by default, I like calling it "default" even less. Also it must be clear that it means 128 kbps for stereo and 64 kbps for mono, which it isn't in your latest posts.

Gale

Posted: **Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:52 pm**

Gale Andrews wrote:The whole point of my question was trying to find out what your proposed default state of the "Lame default" checkbox was, which you didn't say in as many words in any of your posts

The current default is 128 kbps CBR for both mono and stereo. The proposed new option, if enabled by default would change that. I said that I would prefer not to change the default ergo I'd prefer that the new option is disabled by default.

Gale Andrews wrote:If it's to be off by default, I like calling it "default" even less. Also it must be clear that it means 128 kbps for stereo and 64 kbps for mono, which it isn't in your latest posts.

This is just a suggestion and I invite other suggestions:
The first (previously referred to as "Lame default bit rate (128 / 64 kbps CBR) [_]" could be:
[_] Bit rate: 128 kbps stereo / 64 kbps mono

As this is intended primarily for novices I see little benefit in confusing them with details that they probably won't understand such as "CBR joint stereo", though that is what it would be.

Posted: **Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:43 pm**

steve wrote:
Gale Andrews wrote:The whole point of my question was trying to find out what your proposed default state of the "Lame default" checkbox was, which you didn't say in as many words in any of your posts
The current default is 128 kbps CBR for both mono and stereo. The proposed new option, if enabled by default would change that. I said that I would prefer not to change the default ergo I'd prefer that the new option is disabled by default.

I think it would have been clearer to have stated in http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic ... 15#p239015 what the default state of the "Lame default" checkbox was.

steve wrote:
Gale Andrews wrote:If it's to be off by default, I like calling it "default" even less. Also it must be clear that it means 128 kbps for stereo and 64 kbps for mono, which it isn't in your latest posts.
This is just a suggestion and I invite other suggestions:
The first (previously referred to as "Lame default bit rate (128 / 64 kbps CBR) [_]" could be:
[_] Bit rate: 128 kbps stereo / 64 kbps mono

As this is intended primarily for novices I see little benefit in confusing them with details that they probably won't understand such as "CBR joint stereo", though that is what it would be.

I don't think this is wholly for novices. A major part of the rationale is that you don't have to keep changing settings just because you imported a mono file instead of a stereo file or vice-versa.

I still believe it should say what it is. We expose "Constant" and "Joint Stereo" in the current options which are not marked as "Advanced". If we just say "stereo" that implies it actually is stereo rather than joint stereo, so it is directly misleading, unless you intend it should not be joint stereo. Do you intend that?

I think the word "Auto" or (something else if you have a suggestion) will help make clear that the bit rate decision is made "automatically" by Audacity. I an not sure we need the colon. Don't colons usually separate the label from the control?

[_] Auto bit rate (128 kbps joint stereo / 64 kbps mono, CBR)

Gale

Audacity Forum

Request "mono" and "optimal output" on MP3 export screen

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Re: Request "mono" and "optimal output" on MP3 export screen

Re: Request "mono" and "optimal output" on MP3 export screen

Re: Request "mono" and "optimal output" on MP3 export screen

Re: Request "mono" and "optimal output" on MP3 export screen

Re: Request "mono" and "optimal output" on MP3 export screen