Audacity Forum

Robert J. H. wrote:I also wonder if Ctrl-b couldn't have another functionality during playback, for example:

- You start playback
- you set the region start with the normal "Set (or Extend) Left Selection" key (don't know what it is on en English keyboard, I've assigned "L")
- You press Ctrl-b to create a region label that finishes at the current position.
- The selection start is automatically set to this new position, in order to create region labels continuously.
- white space is simply created by pressing Set (or Extend) Left Selection" later during play back.

Technically, Ctrl-b during play back would simulate three keystrokes at once:
- "Set (or Extend) Right Selection"
- "Set (or Extend) Left Selection"
- Ctrl-b as in the stop mode.

Vaughan proposed removing the ability to add label at selection when playing and recording, so there would be only one Add Label command in the Tracks Menu - it would add a label at the selection when there was no playback/recording, and add a label at the playback/recording position when playing/recording.

We've talked him out of that, though I suggested we could do what he wanted if we added a new shortcut that completes the selection during playback (like right bracket does) but also creates a label for that selection. The shortcut might be SHIFT + right bracket. So it's like your idea but not using CTRL + B.

I also suggested that to get rid of add label at selection during playback/recording, we'd also need a modified click to label the click point, and the same modifier would label a region when you release the drag.

A few people have asked about creating contiguous region labels when playing, but I'm not sure that CTRL + B (if we keep it) should ever set the selection start to other than the start of the selection.

Before I suggested that SHIFT + right bracket might complete a selection and draw a label, I'd suggested when there is already a selection region during playback, SHIFT + right bracket might provide an alternative to right bracket by drawing a selection starting from the end of the current region to the point where you pressed SHIFT + ].

That sounds like your idea too, but I don't think that should replace the current right bracket action of extending a current selection during playback. Am I misunderstanding, and you're saying that right bracket would still act as now when there is already a selection?

Either way, does one really need contiguous region labels when point labels act as contiguous track delimiters for Export Multiple?


Gale

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:I think the idea is to ignore white space that separates clips when exporting (and so any white space before the first clip began would be ignored too). Right? So this is the same as the last "Export audio clips only" option of the suggested:

Yes, "Export audio clips only" means the same as "ignore all white space", but I think it is generally preferable to word it in terms of what it does (exports audio clips) rather than what it does not do (not white space).

Yes but I still think "Export audio clips only" is really ambiguous if you have contiguous clips.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:But we still need the first two options of the three for "Export Regions" and "Export Labeled Regions"? Yes?

I'm not sure what you are referring to. This would be for which menu item?

I'm asking about

Keep all white space: [_]
Ignore leading white space: [X]

We still need those options for straight export and Export Multiple, I think. Don't we still need them for the "Export Regions only" and "Export Labeled Regions only" choices in the File > Export Regions... menu item?


Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:Yes but I still think "Export audio clips only" is really ambiguous if you have contiguous clips.

I don't see anything ambiguous about it.
If I have apples and oranges and I "save the apples only", then I save the apples and not the oranges.
If I have apples and pears and I "save the apples only", then I save the apples and not the pears.
If I have apples and no oranges and no pears and I "save the apples only", then I save the apples.

Gale Andrews wrote:We still need those options [Keep all white space / Ignore leading white space] for straight export and Export Multiple, I think. Don't we still need them for the "Export Regions only" and "Export Labeled Regions only" choices in the File > Export Regions... menu item?

Yes I think we need them for straight export and Export Multiple (based on tracks).
If I'm exporting labeled sections, I think the entire labelled section should be exported. If the labeled region includes white space then that should be rendered as silence.

steve wrote:

Robert J. H. wrote:It could be in the right click menu or the Label Editor. The latter option is of course preferable from my perspective.

I think that it is generally agreed that all right click menus need to be available by an accessible means.

Which is not the case for single labels, this menu is not accessible.

steve wrote:

Robert J. H. wrote:I also wonder if Ctrl-b couldn't have another functionality during playback, for example:

- You start playback
- you set the region start with the normal "Set (or Extend) Left Selection" key (don't know what it is on en English keyboard, I've assigned "L")
- You press Ctrl-b to create a region label that finishes at the current position.

The default key for setting the left end of the selection is the left square bracket key.
The default key for setting the right end of the selection is the right square bracket key.
To create a region label during playback you can press the "set left selection" key, then the "set right selection" key, then Ctrl + B.

Yes, but this manual procedure is not seamless unless you produce 44100 keystrokes per second.
In Stop mode, I can do the following:
1. "Space"
2. "["
3. "]"
4. "Space"
5. "Z"
6. "Ctrl-b"
7. label text
8. "Enter"
9. "Right Arrow" (places the cursor exactly at the selection end)
... continue by repeating all steps (without step 2 for touching regions)

This procedure gets tricky for continuous playback (omitting step 4)
The "Right Arrow" key doesn't work anymore, neither does "Ctrl-]" (go to selection end)

A Hotkey macro does not help because the selection end is not known to the external program.
That's why I've proposed the alternative behaviour for Ctrl-b during playback, i.e. the key sequence
"]" "Z" (optional) "Ctrl-b" "[" (with the previously stored selection end)

However, converting point labels to region labels is somewhat a work around.

steve wrote:I think an "Expand label" function is a good idea. Perhaps there should be two versions; "Expand to right" and "Expand to left".quote]
Accordingly, the two shrink region to point label options should be implemented too, i.e. "Shrink Region Label to (left/right boundary" or so.

steve wrote:I'm not sure what should happen if you issue the command to expand labels that are overlapping. Perhaps that should produce an error and only allow expanding labels that do not overlap other labels.

Do you mean point labels that are defined within a region label?
Maybe those point labels shouldn't be creatable in the first place or split the underlying region label in two, don't know.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:Yes but I still think "Export audio clips only" is really ambiguous if you have contiguous clips.

I don't see anything ambiguous about it.

Generate a 20 seconds tone and split at 5s, 10s and 15s. There is no silence to remove. Straight export exports the whole 20s. Then user chooses Export Regions... and "Export audio clips only". User thinks this must be different to straight export, so assumes it must be like Export Multiple for clips. Nope, it's the same as straight export.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:We still need those options [Keep all white space / Ignore leading white space] for straight export and Export Multiple, I think. Don't we still need them for the "Export Regions only" and "Export Labeled Regions only" choices in the File > Export Regions... menu item?

Yes I think we need them for straight export and Export Multiple (based on tracks).
If I'm exporting labeled sections, I think the entire labelled section should be exported. If the labeled region includes white space then that should be rendered as silence.

What if the audio starts at 2s and user selects from time zero? Would we never need an option to include the white space by unchecking "Ignore leading white space"?

Gale

Robert J. H. wrote:

steve wrote:

Robert J. H. wrote:I also wonder if Ctrl-b couldn't have another functionality during playback, for example:

- You start playback
- you set the region start with the normal "Set (or Extend) Left Selection" key (don't know what it is on en English keyboard, I've assigned "L")
- You press Ctrl-b to create a region label that finishes at the current position.

The default key for setting the left end of the selection is the left square bracket key.
The default key for setting the right end of the selection is the right square bracket key.
To create a region label during playback you can press the "set left selection" key, then the "set right selection" key, then Ctrl + B.

Yes, but this manual procedure is not seamless unless you produce 44100 keystrokes per second.
In Stop mode, I can do the following:
1. "Space"
2. "["
3. "]"
4. "Space"
5. "Z"
6. "Ctrl-b"
7. label text
8. "Enter"
9. "Right Arrow" (places the cursor exactly at the selection end)
... continue by repeating all steps (without step 2 for touching regions)

This procedure gets tricky for continuous playback (omitting step 4)
The "Right Arrow" key doesn't work anymore, neither does "Ctrl-]" (go to selection end)

A Hotkey macro does not help because the selection end is not known to the external program.
That's why I've proposed the alternative behaviour for Ctrl-b during playback, i.e. the key sequence
"]" "Z" (optional) "Ctrl-b" "[" (with the previously stored selection end)

Yes but Vaughan wants to get rid of add label at selection during playback, which I think has some merit, but is not a given good thing to do. Hence my proposal which I think is like yours.

What happens in your scheme if there is playback, there is already a selection, and you press right bracket? Does it still select from the start of the selection to the playback position?

Do you or anyone else agree that whether playing/recording or not, we should always use LEFT/RIGHT (and CTRL and SHIFT modification thereof) for moving the cursor/region as determined by the zom level, and always use comma/period (and SHIFT modification thereof) for time-specific seek irrespective of zoom?

steve wrote:I think an "Expand label" function is a good idea. Perhaps there should be two versions; "Expand to right" and "Expand to left"
Accordingly, the two shrink region to point label options should be implemented too, i.e. "Shrink Region Label to (left/right boundary" or so.

Actually I think this was already agreed and voted upon - all four options are good.


Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:Generate a 20 seconds tone and split at 5s, 10s and 15s. There is no silence to remove. Straight export exports the whole 20s. Then user chooses Export Regions... and "Export audio clips only". User thinks this must be different to straight export, so assumes it must be like Export Multiple for clips. Nope, it's the same as straight export.

If they think "Oh it must be like Export Multiple", why would they not use Export Multiple?
As soon as they open the interface they would see that there is no provision for exporting multiple files. If you think this is serious concern then renaming "Export Multiple" as "Export Multiple Files" would make it clear which command to use for exporting multiple files.

Gale Andrews wrote:What if the audio starts at 2s and user selects from time zero?

I assume that if they selected from zero that they want 2 seconds of lead-in silence, otherwise they would select from 2 seconds.

Robert J. H. wrote:

steve wrote:I think that it is generally agreed that all right click menus need to be available by an accessible means.

Which is not the case for single labels, this menu is not accessible.

Currently the only right click label options are Cut, Copy and Paste, which are available by tabbing to the label, End key then Shift+Home to select the text then the usual Ctrl+X, Ctrl+C and Ctr+V.

Testing this now, there seems to be a bug so that this does not always work, either with the keyboard commands or the right click menu.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:Generate a 20 seconds tone and split at 5s, 10s and 15s. There is no silence to remove. Straight export exports the whole 20s. Then user chooses Export Regions... and "Export audio clips only". User thinks this must be different to straight export, so assumes it must be like Export Multiple for clips. Nope, it's the same as straight export.

If they think "Oh it must be like Export Multiple", why would they not use Export Multiple?
As soon as they open the interface they would see that there is no provision for exporting multiple files. If you think this is serious concern then renaming "Export Multiple" as "Export Multiple Files" would make it clear which command to use for exporting multiple files.

Yes it's a concern. Export Regions... is plural. "Export audio clips only" is plural.

It may be good to rename to "Export Multiple Files..." if we have Export Regions. We may find a better name for "Export audio clips only" which is my main beef.

We can worry about that when you provide your patch for Export Regions.


Gale