Audacity Forum

Split from http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic ... 45#p232245 .

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:I support having a "Tools" Menu, but you don't seem to be persuading the developers. Nyquist Workbench should be in the "Tools" menu but there should be at least three released items in that menu to justify adding it. If we released "Quick Calculator" what else would go in "Tools"?

Below are some possible candidates for a Tools menu.

As a naive user I would not look in the Analyze Menu for track splitters that split on either silence/sound or split into regular sections.

As a naive user I might look in Generate for a plug-in that I knew generated labels, but I don't think that is a solution. Generate is for audio.

steve wrote: [*]Edit Metadata. (it is related to file in/out, but is not actually a "file command").
[*]Check Dependencies. (While there are practical considerations for keeping this in the File menu, it is really a "tool" for checking the project dependencies)

On the whole, I don't see a strong case for moving those. Quite related to files.

steve wrote: [*]Rescan Audio Devices. (Not about "transport").

Transport is about audio devices. I would move Audio Device Info into Transport with Rescan Audio Devices.

steve wrote: [*]Edit Chains / Apply Chains. (Again, not really a "file command").
[*]Mixer Board?

Since Apply Chain can be applied to Files, and Edit Chains must be with it, it has a relationship to File Menu. I would like ultimately to see it in an "Automation" menu with macro recording and editing in the other menu items. Until then there is a weak case for it to be in a Tools menu.

Putting Mixer Board in Tools similarly seems only a half-improvement. I think it would be most discoverable in Tracks.

steve wrote: [*]Run Benchmark.
[*]Screenshot Tools (the name says why).

+1

steve wrote: Non-shipped features:

• Quick Calculator.
• Robert's "Nyquist Reference" plug-in (though could perhaps be in the Help menu).
• bpm Calculator. http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic ... 33#p196933
• Beat Per Minute labels. http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic ... 21#p155621

Other possible features:

• Envelope Tool options (linear, exponential, other fade types)
• Tempo mapping. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempo_map)
• Sound font manager for MIDI to Audio rendering.
• Channel mapping for device in/out.
• Effects manager.
• CD ripper / burner.

"Nyquist Reference" should be in "Help".

I don't think at this stage that a CD ripper/burner is likely now unless we have a specialised Audacity for bundling with USB playback devices. My support for CD tools has cooled off, and so have user requests for it. Perhaps the fall off of interest in commercial CD's is the reason. I do think Tools would be the place for a video editing window or other tools which bridged to other apps.

Anyhow I would expect agreement on Screenshot Tools and Run Benchmark in a new Tools Menu, so we don't have to add much else. I'm OK with adding the two calculators. It still leaves a question about whether any kind of track splitter would be easier found in Tools.


Gale

The list that I gave was intended as no more than a list of possible candidates for a Tools menu. I think that some of those listed are better where they already are, at least for now.

Gale Andrews wrote:As a naive user I would not look in the Analyze Menu for track splitters that split on either silence/sound or split into regular sections.
As a naive user I might look in Generate for a plug-in that I knew generated labels, but I don't think that is a solution. Generate is for audio.

I agree that "Generate" is for generating audio.
Also that "Analyze" is for analyzing audio and "Effect(s)" are for processing audio.

If we had a "track splitter" that actually "split" tracks, then I think the proper place would be the "Tracks" menu. "Sound/Silence Finder" do not actually split the track. They just analyze the audio. The results of the analysis may find places that are suitable for splitting, but that is not the only use for the analysis. Labels are multi-functional - there are many reasons why users may want to mark sections that are unrelated to splitting.

Imo Sound/Silence Finder is correctly placed in the Analyze menu, because it is analyzing the audio.

On the other hand, "Regular Interval Labels" is not analyzing anything. It is not generating audio and it is not processing audio.

There could be a case for placing all commands that generate labels in the "Tracks" menu because they will add a new track if no track is selected, but I'd prefer that commands (plug-ins) that analyze the audio were in the Analyze menu. For example, a plug-in could analyze an audio track and place labels to show the RMS level during non-silence (useful for analyzing audio book recordings). The obvious place for such a plug-in would be the Analyze menu.

Gale Andrews wrote:

steve wrote:

• Edit Metadata. (it is related to file in/out, but is not actually a "file command").
• Check Dependencies. (While there are practical considerations for keeping this in the File menu, it is really a "tool" for checking the project dependencies)

On the whole, I don't see a strong case for moving those. Quite related to files.

+1 for keeping "Check Dependencies" in the File menu.
I'm not so sure about "Edit Metadata" - there are quite a few requests for enhancing metadata handling which could influence the most appropriate place. For now I'd be in favour of keeping it in the File menu, but future development could change my opinion.

Gale Andrews wrote:Since Apply Chain can be applied to Files, and Edit Chains must be with it, it has a relationship to File Menu.

But Chains are not necessarily applied to Files.
I would prefer that batch processing and effects automation were (eventually) split. I'd then be happy with batch processing in the Files menu and effects automation elsewhere (possibly in a "tools" menu).

Gale Andrews wrote:Putting Mixer Board in Tools similarly seems only a half-improvement. I think it would be most discoverable in Tracks.

I don't see a strong case for moving Mixer Board at present, though there is a lot of scope for future development of the Mixer Board.

Gale Andrews wrote:Transport is about audio devices.

I don't see that.
I see "Transport" as analogous to the "tape transport" in a tape based recorder, so including such things as Play, Rewind, Record, Timer Record, Skip to End....
"Audio devices" on the other hand is about sound cards and such and is no more related to "Transport" than, for example, the record/playback meters.

Gale Andrews wrote:

steve wrote:

• Run Benchmark.
• Screenshot Tools (the name says why).

+1

+1

Gale Andrews wrote:"Nyquist Reference" should be in "Help".

+1, though there is currently no mechanism to do that. It would require that either there is an additional "Help" type plug-in. or that the plug-in is converted to some other form, such as a built-in (C++) command. The former is the better solution in my opinion.

Gale Andrews wrote:My support for CD tools has cooled off, and so have user requests for it.

Yes I've noticed that the demand for CD ripping appears to have gone down, though I think there is still sizeable demand.
I get the impression that there is still high demand for CD burning (based on the number of users requesting help making audio CDs). Whether or not Audacity could or should include an audio CD burner is a different question, but if it did then that would probably be best in the proposed "Tools" menu.

Gale Andrews wrote: I do think Tools would be the place for a video editing window or other tools which bridged to other apps.

If Audacity had a built in "video window" to display video (no video editing capability) then I'd think that the appropriate place would be: "View > Video".
For tools which bridge to other applications, +1, Tools menu.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:As a naive user I would not look in the Analyze Menu for track splitters that split on either silence/sound or split into regular sections.
As a naive user I might look in Generate for a plug-in that I knew generated labels, but I don't think that is a solution. Generate is for audio.

I agree that "Generate" is for generating audio.
Also that "Analyze" is for analyzing audio and "Effect(s)" are for processing audio.

If we had a "track splitter" that actually "split" tracks, then I think the proper place would be the "Tracks" menu. "Sound/Silence Finder" do not actually split the track. They just analyze the audio. The results of the analysis may find places that are suitable for splitting, but that is not the only use for the analysis. Labels are multi-functional - there are many reasons why users may want to mark sections that are unrelated to splitting.

Imo Sound/Silence Finder is correctly placed in the Analyze menu, because it is analyzing the audio.

On the other hand, "Regular Interval Labels" is not analyzing anything. It is not generating audio and it is not processing audio.

There could be a case for placing all commands that generate labels in the "Tracks" menu because they will add a new track if no track is selected, but I'd prefer that commands (plug-ins) that analyze the audio were in the Analyze menu. For example, a plug-in could analyze an audio track and place labels to show the RMS level during non-silence (useful for analyzing audio book recordings). The obvious place for such a plug-in would be the Analyze menu.

As a "naive" user, I would search for a separate "Labels" menu where you can create empty or regular label tracks and do all sort of manipulations.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:Since Apply Chain can be applied to Files, and Edit Chains must be with it, it has a relationship to File Menu.

But Chains are not necessarily applied to Files.
I would prefer that batch processing and effects automation were (eventually) split. I'd then be happy with batch processing in the Files menu and effects automation elsewhere (possibly in a "tools" menu).

I see the chain command as a kind of Macro management, hopefully someday with the ability to record macros. The application of those chain commands to files could be split off and remain in the file menu. Everything else should go to the tools menu.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:Putting Mixer Board in Tools similarly seems only a half-improvement. I think it would be most discoverable in Tracks.

I don't see a strong case for moving Mixer Board at present, though there is a lot of scope for future development of the Mixer Board.

Yes, it is not yet sure which direction this will take.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:Transport is about audio devices.

I don't see that.
I see "Transport" as analogous to the "tape transport" in a tape based recorder, so including such things as Play, Rewind, Record, Timer Record, Skip to End....
"Audio devices" on the other hand is about sound cards and such and is no more related to "Transport" than, for example, the record/playback meters.

I share Steve's opinion.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:

steve wrote:

• Run Benchmark.
• Screenshot Tools (the name says why).

+1

+1

+1

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:"Nyquist Reference" should be in "Help".

+1, though there is currently no mechanism to do that. It would require that either there is an additional "Help" type plug-in. or that the plug-in is converted to some other form, such as a built-in (C++) command. The former is the better solution in my opinion.

I don't see it in the help menu. If anything, than as help button within the Nyquist prompt.
If a user experiments with Nyquist, he starts out with the Nyquist prompt and he wants to look up a function without discarding all he has written so far.
However, Since there's no such mechanism available, I see it really in the tools menu. Especially if the Nyquist Work Bench goes there too.
I would even place the Nyquist prompt there, because it isn't an effect plug-in. You can execute pure analyse functions too. However, this clashes somewhat with Steve's philosophy "No input for the tools menu".

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:My support for CD tools has cooled off, and so have user requests for it.

Yes I've noticed that the demand for CD ripping appears to have gone down, though I think there is still sizeable demand.
I get the impression that there is still high demand for CD burning (based on the number of users requesting help making audio CDs). Whether or not Audacity could or should include an audio CD burner is a different question, but if it did then that would probably be best in the proposed "Tools" menu.

There's certainly a high demand for a simple CD-burner. Perhaps just a tool that produces a finished CD-image that can be burned afterwards e.g. sent to the favourite burner program or the operating system itself.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote: I do think Tools would be the place for a video editing window or other tools which bridged to other apps.

If Audacity had a built in "video window" to display video (no video editing capability) then I'd think that the appropriate place would be: "View > Video".
For tools which bridge to other applications, +1, Tools menu.

Which rises again the question what data actually should go through this pipeline. For an external MIDI player/editor, a MIDI Track had to be selected. The same is true for any kind of visualization.
There are very few applications that wouldn't need data, such as a video capture or audio capture program (to create tutorials).

Robert J. H. wrote:As a "naive" user, I would search for a separate "Labels" menu

There's an obvious logic to that but I think it could be problematic. For example, "Edit > Labelled Audio" seem clear as "Edit" commands, but may be less expected if all other label commands are in a separate menu. "Find Silence" is clearly "analyzing". Export multiple based on labels is clearly exporting files. It's less confusing in my opinion to put commands in menus according to function rather than by implementation.

Robert J. H. wrote:I see the chain command as a kind of Macro management, hopefully someday with the ability to record macros. The application of those chain commands to files could be split off and remain in the file menu. Everything else should go to the tools menu.

+1

Robert J. H. wrote:I don't see it in the help menu. If anything, than as help button within the Nyquist prompt.

I quite like the idea of it as Nyquist Prompt Help, though see below.

Robert J. H. wrote: would even place the Nyquist prompt there, because it isn't an effect plug-in. You can execute pure analyse functions too. However, this clashes somewhat with Steve's philosophy "No input for the tools menu".

Assuming that Nyquist Workbench is not shipped as a standard part of Audacity, I'd prefer to see a more versatile Nyquist Prompt in the "Tools" menu.
The current Nyquist Prompt is a "process" type effect. Even though it may be used for pure analysis or for text only output, it is configured internally as a process type (as can be seen by the way that it handles "warp").

My "functional approach" to menus does not necessarily conflict with allowing audio input for a "tools type" plug-in, though usually if there is audio input then the plug-in is likely to be an effect (process type) or an analyze plug-in. The main use for a "Tools" menu is for tools that fit badly in the current menus (square pegs in round holes). A Nyquist Prompt that could act as any plug-in type would not be a good fit in any of the current menus, just as the Nyquist Workbench does not.

Robert J. H. wrote:There's certainly a high demand for a simple CD-burner. Perhaps just a tool that produces a finished CD-image that can be burned afterwards e.g. sent to the favourite burner program or the operating system itself.

That certainly sounds doable.
Can Windows burn an audio CD from a CD image or are third party tools required?

steve wrote:

Robert J. H. wrote:There's certainly a high demand for a simple CD-burner. Perhaps just a tool that produces a finished CD-image that can be burned afterwards e.g. sent to the favourite burner program or the operating system itself.

That certainly sounds doable.
Can Windows burn an audio CD from a CD image or are third party tools required?

It's a long time since I've burnt a CD. Data CD's aren't a problem, you just use the "Send to" command from the context menu or drag and drop the files onto the CD-writer.
You can afterwards burn those collected files.
Burning a Audio CD might be different in that the CD has to be finished in order to be playable in a car or so. I wouldn't wonder if there are command line switches that can do that.
Writing a *.iso or *.dmg or whatever could be a start point. I think the right click menu in the explorer should already list a burning option for the favourite burner (or to mount a virtual CD-rom).
Gayle might be more proficient in these matters than I.

Update:
Windows 7 & 8 have an integrated tool called "isoburn.exe".
*.iso and *.img files can directly be burnt to CDR without GUI (switch /Q).
However, it might be better to call the simple GUI because it lets you choose the CD-burner, reminds you to insert a blank CD and you can additionally check the "Verify CD" option.

Alternatively, Audacity could use the CDRTools, known from Linux Distributions.

SOX, on the other hand, has options to create Images with the proper padding for Audio-CDs.
There's certainly a bunch of other GPL-Code available for this task.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:Since Apply Chain can be applied to Files, and Edit Chains must be with it, it has a relationship to File Menu.

But Chains are not necessarily applied to Files.
I would prefer that batch processing and effects automation were (eventually) split. I'd then be happy with batch processing in the Files menu and effects automation elsewhere (possibly in a "tools" menu).

If not applied to files, Chains are applied to projects, so that usage is appropriate in the File menu in one sense.

Personally I would like to see one dialogue for Chains, from which you can edit and apply the Chain. I think the only argument for two menu items is that users aren't looking in the File menu because they are doing "effects automation". If that is the main problem, then perhaps a single Chain command should go other than in the File Menu.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:Transport is about audio devices.

I don't see that.

We made the Transport Menu about audio devices (look underneath the last divider in that menu).


Gale

Robert J. H. wrote:There's certainly a high demand for a simple CD-burner.

Wiki Feature Requests has had "CD Rip and Burn (22 votes)" for a few years now. I only have one vote stored (for CD burning only) not yet added. If there are recent or not counted votes, how many are there?

Dominic has an unused standalone CD burning library called "portburn" in the Audacity sources. See http://audacity.238276.n2.nabble.com/CD ... 54321.html .

Latest OS X also has a burn ISO command, however if Audacity exploited an operating system burn feature it would not work on Windows Vista or XP (more than one-third of Windows users are still on those versions).


Gale

waxcylinder wrote:In order for this to move forward (if thought appropriate) it is probably necessary to develop a Wiki Proposal ...

I do not propose to transfer this to Wiki > PFR

Agreed, but how many votes are there for a Tools Menu? Those could go direct on Feature Requests.

Gale, Steve, Robert are in favour. Anyone else?


Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:Personally I would like to see one dialogue for Chains, from which you can edit and apply the Chain.

+1

I kept think that last year when I was working on the manual entries for chains.

Peter.