Audacity Forum

Paul L wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote: While we are at it, would VI users prefer UP and DOWN cycled in the specified direction rather than coming to a halt at the top or bottom respectively of the track table? In other words, when UP reaches the topmost track, the next press of UP goes to the bottom track and cycles upwards from there?

Gale

I'm not VI, but there is already an editing preference for that. The checkbox in Tracks preferences for ' "Move track focus" cycles repeatedly through tracks'

OK, thanks for that reminder.


Gale

Robert J. H. wrote:I'd like to have an Option in the Preference menu to turn off the automatic Label edit mode. It is really annoying in combination with a Screen Reader.

I'll add your vote, but the developers are not keen on more Preferences. Perhaps they would say that you should use Labels Editor instead and we should improve that (for example by adding a preview button for labeled audio).

I thought that labels were inaccessible to screen readers.

Robert J. H. wrote:To use tab and shift tab - if in "edit mode" or not - would for me be the most natural behaviour. Ninety nine percent of the programs out there function in this manner.

Then you must have some command to open the labels for editing rather than TAB or SHIFT + TAB opening the labels for you. If a label is selected but closed and you want it to open, it could be convenient if TAB or SHIFT and TAB opened that label.

Robert J. H. wrote:Control + tab is rather preserved for switching Tabs in Dialog boxes. But I could very well see that it Switches between Label tracks as well.

What else do you suggest for a shortcut? It's possible Audacity may have tabbed projects at some time but probably not very likely.

As it is unexpected that TAB opens the labels for editing, perhaps it should not, and have some other shortcut that does what TAB between labels does now (CTRL + LEFT and CTRL + RIGHT perhaps)? I think some users do find it convenient to TAB between opened labels so we should not force an extra "open the label" command for each label on them.


Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:

Robert J. H. wrote:I'd like to have an Option in the Preference menu to turn off the automatic Label edit mode. It is really annoying in combination with a Screen Reader.

I'll add your vote, but the developers are not keen on more Preferences. Perhaps they would say that you should use Labels Editor instead and we should improve that (for example by adding a preview button for labeled audio).

I thought that labels were inaccessible to screen readers.

Robert J. H. wrote:To use tab and shift tab - if in "edit mode" or not - would for me be the most natural behaviour. Ninety nine percent of the programs out there function in this manner.

Then you must have some command to open the labels for editing rather than TAB or SHIFT + TAB opening the labels for you. If a label is selected but closed and you want it to open, it could be convenient if TAB or SHIFT and TAB opened that label.

Robert J. H. wrote:Control + tab is rather preserved for switching Tabs in Dialog boxes. But I could very well see that it Switches between Label tracks as well.

What else do you suggest for a shortcut? It's possible Audacity may have tabbed projects at some time but probably not very likely.

As it is unexpected that TAB opens the labels for editing, perhaps it should not, and have some other shortcut that does what TAB between labels does now (CTRL + LEFT and CTRL + RIGHT perhaps)? I think some users do find it convenient to TAB between opened labels so we should not force an extra "open the label" command for each label on them.


Gale

How accessible Labels are, is a matter of Definition.
I can of course create a Label track and individual Labels. I can also move to such a track and try to navigate around.
But this is very confusing. As far as I can see I have to press tab to be in the edit mode for the first Label, then I can press 3 times tab to be at the third Label, press enter to leave the edit mode and finally press space to hear the Audio from that Point onwards. Sadly enough, I can't press tab one more time (or rather two times) to go to the next Label - it all Begins from the start.
That's all not Logical to me.
My intuitive understanding would be:
- I work in a Audio track and the Cursor is at 00.01.00
- I move to the Label track and no Action is performed yet.
- I press tab and find myself in the Label just right of the Cursor (or shift-tab for the one left of it).
- The edit mode is only on if I press a hotkey (for example ctrl-enter), otherwise, I can Play or Loop the label.
- if in edit mode, tab and shift-tab still move between Labels, but they are kept open for editing.
- The program indicates the edit mode as it does with the other states (select on, solo on, mute on).

Of course, the edit Label mode is currently (as captain Hamilton would say) "pretty rotten sort of" useless for me, since the charactars are not spoken out.
There are currently Features that are in conflict with my desired behaviour from above, I am fully Aware of that. The instantaneous writing (or rather creating) of Labels by pressing any alphanumeric key is such a Feature. I would preserve this possibility for the Play mode, where you want to write along in order to make a transcription or notes. I don't use this Feature so I don't know how it reacts at present. Again, I would expect something like:
- edit mode is off, you start Play back.
- By typing any valid Cahracter, edit mode is on.
- space bar simply enters a space.
- Label is finished with pressing enter (the Audio is still playing)
- You can now stop the playback or recommence typing a new sentence/Label.

The control-tab functions I've mentioned above would Switch between Label tracks - just as if they were Tabs in a project. That's easier understandable in the context of the Label Editor where in fact each Label track could have its own tab.

Your proposed ctrl + arrow could very well serve as an Navigation replacement for the tab key (it is normally preserved to move between words but nevertheless as well appliable for Labels in this context. I don't know if this combination still moves between words while editing a Label.
Besides, any key combinations that include the numpad keys should be avoided, firstly, it is not convenient on most Laptops and secondly, screenreaders use them intensively.

Here's a sample file, that Shows how two sounds are used to indicate entering and leaving edit mode (NVDA and JAWS). Thanks for your patch executable.
I've not tried it yet (i am still on 2.0.2).

Robert J. H. wrote:I can of course create a Label track and individual Labels. I can also move to such a track and try to navigate around.
But this is very confusing. As far as I can see I have to press tab to be in the edit mode for the first Label, then I can press 3 times tab to be at the third Label, press enter to leave the edit mode and finally press space to hear the Audio from that Point onwards. Sadly enough, I can't press tab one more time (or rather two times) to go to the next Label - it all Begins from the start.

Yes there are many votes counted including yours that TAB should not start from the beginning of the label track.

Robert J. H. wrote: My intuitive understanding would be:
- I work in a Audio track and the Cursor is at 00.01.00
- I move to the Label track and no Action is performed yet.
- I press tab and find myself in the Label just right of the Cursor (or shift-tab for the one left of it).
- The edit mode is only on if I press a hotkey (for example ctrl-enter), otherwise, I can Play or Loop the label.
- if in edit mode, tab and shift-tab still move between Labels, but they are kept open for editing.

That last point is a very reasonable suggestion to make things easier for those who want to TAB between labels to edit them (they only have to enable editing once for that label track).

Do you envisage that shortcut is a toggle on an off for label editing? If so then for sighted users perhaps this could be a button on the Label Track itself. Since label tracks have their own Preferences (for Font), perhaps the initial state of this button (on or off) could be set in those Label Track Preferences so as to save a "creep" problem where we end up with too many main Preferences.

Having used the designated shortcut to enable label editing for that track, and if we add a method to select a label with a mouse without opening it, should that method then open the label if this shortcut is on? For consistency, I guess it should.

I still think this idea is a little unexpected - normally such a shortcut (typically, F2) only opens the currently selected control, then TAB will select but not open the next control. This is how Labels Editor works. But your idea maybe a good compromise if we only want one pair of shortcuts that navigate forward/back in label tracks.

Robert J. H. wrote:There are currently Features that are in conflict with my desired behaviour from above, I am fully Aware of that. The instantaneous writing (or rather creating) of Labels by pressing any alphanumeric key is such a Feature. I would preserve this possibility for the Play mode, where you want to write along in order to make a transcription or notes. I don't use this Feature so I don't know how it reacts at present. Again, I would expect something like:
- edit mode is off, you start Play back.
- By typing any valid Cahracter, edit mode is on.
- space bar simply enters a space.
- Label is finished with pressing enter (the Audio is still playing)
- You can now stop the playback or recommence typing a new sentence/Label.

That is roughly how it works now, but it soon encounters problems.

If the label starts with b, then this does create a label starting with "b" but it also activates the "b" shortcut and so restarts playback which then stops when the cursor or mouse pointer is reached. Similarly with other special playback commands like "C" and "1".

If you ENTER to confirm the label then use SHIFT + A to stop playback and set the cursor there, a new label starting with upper case A is created at the cursor.

These issues are as per bug 30 .

I'm increasingly persuaded that there should be a new Preference "Create label by typing in focused label track". Or for easier access, make it a label button (which would then be specific to that label track).

Robert J. H. wrote: The control-tab functions I've mentioned above would Switch between Label tracks - just as if they were Tabs in a project. That's easier understandable in the context of the Label Editor where in fact each Label track could have its own tab.

Perhaps. It would not be a much used shortcut, given most users only have single label tracks. Perhaps it should cycle between different tracks of the same type when a track of that type has focus? Or perhaps we should use CTRL + UP and CTRL + DOWN to do that which is more related to current UP and DOWN usage.

Robert J. H. wrote:Your proposed ctrl + arrow could very well serve as an Navigation replacement for the tab key (it is normally preserved to move between words but nevertheless as well appliable for Labels in this context. I don't know if this combination still moves between words while editing a Label.

If we implemented your shortcut that opens/closes labels for editing when they are selected, would we need CTRL + LEFT and CTRL + RIGHT for navigating between and also opening labels?

I think CTRL + LEFT and CTRL + RIGHT would be very appropriate for navigation between words in labels, whatever shortcuts we use for navigating between labels. I don't think you would want the same shortcuts for navigating words in labels and navigating between labels.

There are a lot of good ideas being thrown around. Perhaps we should consider the most useful ones (for all usage cases, not just one use case) then see if the less useful ones can fit in or conflict.

Robert J. H. wrote:Thanks for your patch executable. I've not tried it yet (i am still on 2.0.2).

You can run that patched executable from a folder containing any 2.x version.



Gale

Gayle, I fully agree.
I guess an edit button (like solo in Audio tracks) is the most elegant way to make the Label usage more versatile and individual.
Additionally, the Status Report "edit on" makes even for the VI easy to recognize - without the hazardly implementation of the edit mode sounds I've attached above.
Maybe those will be available automatically when some rainy day the Labels themself can be read out.
Since the mode concerns the whole Status of the track and not single Labels, the shorcut can as well be something like "Modifier-F2".
Ctrl-Tab can be omitted, I think, it is rather infrequent that one works with 20 audio tracks and the same amount of label tracks - unless he has unlimited confidence in himself and the program...

@Gale: do I assume correctly that you have teased out all the votes from this thread - and that thus I can archive it?

Peter.

waxcylinder wrote:@Gale: do I assume correctly that you have teased out all the votes from this thread - and that thus I can archive it?

Yes - and I had some PM's and e-mails about it from others too. I don't have time to digest all the opinions and votes and make it suitable for Feature Requests right now, but some time it will get on there.


Gale

Peter and I would like to suggest another right-click menu item (solely over a point label) "Remove & Delete to Next Label". This aims to make it easier and more intuitive to execute this use case http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/Remo ... s#usecase2 of deleting exactly the region occupied by a point label sited between other labels, moving the following labels back by exactly that amount while removing only that point label.

Perhaps also we could consider "Remove & Delete to Previous Label" which would only delete the right-hand label of the two we were (invisibly) selecting between.

I'll be adding our votes for these sometime to FR's.



Gale