Labels wish-list

[Gale Andrews]

2. A command that deletes all labels lying entirely within the selected region of label track(s).

I have not tried the Ed/Steve patch yet, but we do have Edit > Remove Audio or Labels > Split Cut ( or Split Delete) for this purpose, so another menu item in there "Remove Selected Labels" that does the same as "Split Delete" when the selection is only over labels seems rather questionable to me.

Does the patch handle a selection that partly transgresses a region label in the same way as Split Delete or Split Cut - it truncates the label? Or does it have no effect over a partially transgressed label?

The issue I do see is that "Split Delete" is hard to find tucked in that Remove Audio or Labels menu, so when you are thinking about "removing labels" it may not be obvious that "Split Delete" does what you want.

Personally I would much rather see:

Copy
Cut
Delete
Split Delete
Split Cut
Paste

as right-click options over any selection area. More right-click functionality is a common feature request.

If discoverability is still a problem (which I think is true even with the patch), then add an [X] widget to the label which deletes the label. If a selection transgresses or only partially transgresses multiple labels, then [X] on any label deletes all the labels in the selection. This therefore provides different functionality from Split Delete or Split Cut which would only truncate a partially transgressed label.

1. Ctrl-drag can move a label vertically to a different label track without changing its horizontal position. (Analogous to ctrl-drag in the time-shift tool.)

There's quite an easy workaround for that:

1. Click in the label that you want to replicate and press Enter (so that you're not in label edit)
2. Use the cursor up/down keys to move to the other label track
3. Press Ctrl+B

Cute - but the downside is that it doesn't replicate the label text - you can fix that with a cut&paste jobby

Paul said "move" rather than "replicate", if so:

1 Edit > Remove Audio or Labels > Split Cut
2 ENTER
3 DOWN arrow or UP arrow as appropriate
4 ENTER
5 Edit > Paste

works for that too.


Gale

[steve]

we do have Edit > Remove Audio or Labels > Split Cut ( or Split Delete)

That is a reasonable workaround in some situations, but it's not a full replacement for a simple way to remove labels.

Try this:
Open or create a project, preferably a big complex multi-track project that you have spent hours/days/weeks on.
If you already have some point labels, click on one to select it, then "Edit > Remove Audio or Labels > Split Delete".
Were you expecting that to happen?

Also, as you go on to say, what about if the label overlaps or is within another label?

Does the patch handle a selection that partly transgresses a region label in the same way as Split Delete or Split Cut - it truncates the label? Or does it have no effect over a partially transgressed label?

No. It removes selected labels it does not edit them. It has no effect on partially selected labels.
Currently, if you have a label with label text, that lies within another labelled region, or overlaps another labelled region, it is laborious to remove that label without messing up the other labels (by deleting every character in the label text, then delete one more). Do that for all of the lyrics of verse 2 of your new karaoke masterpiece and you'll be ready to kick something.

The issue I do see is that "Split Delete" is hard to find tucked in that Remove Audio or Labels menu, so when you are thinking about "removing labels" it may not be obvious that "Split Delete" does what you want

The same applies to the new proposed patch, and I see no way round that given the current menu design, but "Shift+Delete" would be a very easy and memorable short-cut.

Personally I would much rather see:

Copy
Cut
Delete
Split Delete
Split Cut
Paste

as right-click options over any selection area.

I presume there is some reason why this hasn't been done?
There still needs to be an accessible method for non-mouse users.

add an [X] widget to the label which deletes the label.

That would be an improvement on what we have now, but it is still not ideal if you want to delete several consecutive labels. Also I'm a bit wary about loading labels with too many symbols - a simple point "marker" already has a "flag" (for label text), a circle (for moving the label) and two "ears" (for expanding the label into a region label).

[Gale Andrews]

Hi Steve

I'm probably still going to come over as less than enthusiastic, but I still think this is another menu item for a "pro tem", fairly undiscoverable workaround that doesn't help in all that many cases. It isn't the thorough-going and discoverable solution that we actually need.

If it even had a button (as well as the menu item) - for example in the Label Track Control Panel - I would be much happier with it. As it is I just don't think enough people are even going to find it.

we do have Edit > Remove Audio or Labels > Split Cut ( or Split Delete)

That is a reasonable workaround in some situations, but it's not a full replacement for a simple way to remove labels.

Try this:
Open or create a project, preferably a big complex multi-track project that you have spent hours/days/weeks on.
If you already have some point labels, click on one to select it, then "Edit > Remove Audio or Labels > Split Delete".
Were you expecting that to happen?

I can definitely see a user doing that, but that is not how label deletion works via Edit > Remove Audio or Labels, because that menu works on selections (like most of Edit Menu).

If the user wants to delete more than one label at a time, they should be able to figure that they need to select over more than one label (given there is no way to select in more than one label at once). In that case Edit > Remove Audio or Labels > Split Cut or Split Delete works (if there are no nested labels).

What about if the label overlaps or is within another label?

It has no effect on partially selected labels

It is always going to be difficult if you try to remove chosen labels in nested label groups by selecting a region over them. I think that is the wrong way to try.

In the image below we want to delete labels "er" and "34343" but not "short", "545" or overlap, and we don't want to modify the containing label "mas". This cannot be done in one operation if we require full selection of a label to delete it, because we'll remove "short" in order to remove "34343".

labels inside each other.png (4.65 KiB) Viewed 1471 times

If only partial selection was required to delete labels, we could do it in one operation by selecting from "e" of "er" to just a fraction inside "34343" (ensuring we don't touch the left edge of "short"). But then what rule could you have that retained "mas"?

So ultimately without the ability to multiple select exactly the labels you want to delete (either by SHIFT-click or by per-label checkboxes in Labels Editor), even your patch is not a complete solution.

Surely what we want (as I have said many times) is multiple label selection? Labels Editor does not even support multiple selection of adjacent labels in the labels list.

Does the patch handle a selection that partly transgresses a region label in the same way as Split Delete or Split Cut - it truncates the label? Or does it have no effect over a partially transgressed label?

No. It removes selected labels it does not edit them.

OK, that makes more sense. I was not clear from your e-mail if your patch achieved this yet.

The issue I do see is that "Split Delete" is hard to find tucked in that Remove Audio or Labels menu, so when you are thinking about "removing labels" it may not be obvious that "Split Delete" does what you want

The same applies to the new proposed patch, and I see no way round that given the current menu design, but "Shift+Delete" would be a very easy and memorable short-cut.

But you still have to wander into a cascading menu to find what the shortcut is. I am guessing this does not matter quite so much for visually impaired users as they must explore menus and shortcuts.

Sighted users are looking for a more "visual clue" to delete the labels, hence the requests for delete buttons or right-click menus. In my opinion the latter are less costly in repetitive strain - just keep your right hand on the mouse - and don't require any ability to memorise shortcuts.

Personally I would much rather see:

Copy
Cut
Delete
Split Delete
Split Cut
Paste

as right-click options over any selection area.

I presume there is some reason why this hasn't been done?

Apathy and inertia I presume, and perhaps a mistaken feeling that this is still not the done thing on Linux. I've been on about it ever since I became interested in Audacity.

There still needs to be an accessible method for non-mouse users.

I don't see in what way right-click (context key) is inaccessible.

I don't see in what way your solution is accessible, given the label track itself is inaccessible. The labels are not read out, so although you can read the selection from Selection Toolbar, you have no idea what labels are included in the selection without going into Labels Editor.

And if you could multiple select arbitrary labels in Labels Editor, I'm unsure what advantage your patch would have for visually impaired users at all. If they are can identify a selection fully containing isolated multiple labels they want to delete, they can use CTRL + ALT + K or CTRL + ALT + X now without worrying about the new shortcut of SHIFT + DELETE. I can't imagine they are trying to figure out nested labels with Selection Toolbar?

add an [X] widget to the label which deletes the label.

That would be an improvement on what we have now, but it is still not ideal if you want to delete several consecutive labels.

Agreed, but I think for sighted users, delete buttons on labels may be better than your patch for complex nested label scenarios. For those scenarios I think we want multiple label selection. An accessible alternative for that could be provided by a more functional labels editor, or by some way in which right-click or a shortcut in a label track triggers a list of labels which you can select for various types of action.

If labels were accessible then perhaps this could list only the labels in (or partly in) the selection.

Also I'm a bit wary about loading labels with too many symbols - a simple point "marker" already has a "flag" (for label text), a circle (for moving the label) and two "ears" (for expanding the label into a region label).

There is plenty of height below the stem for a Delete button I think. If multiple label selection was supported then there could be an option only to show the delete button for selected labels.


Gale

[waxcylinder]

we do have Edit > Remove Audio or Labels > Split Cut ( or Split Delete)

That is a reasonable workaround in some situations, but it's not a full replacement for a simple way to remove labels.

But surely that deletes not just the labels but the selected label region as well so any succeeding labels are shifted leftwards on the timeline.

I seem to recall that in an earlier version of Audacity using Ctrl+L with part of a label track selected would in fact do what has been requested and delete the labels without any shifting of subsequent labels - but that seemed to disappear in later versions.

WC

[steve]

If it even had a button (as well as the menu item) - for example in the Label Track Control Panel - I would be much happier with it.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. What would the button do?

I still think this is another menu item for a "pro tem"

I don't see it as "pro tempore", but rather as "a start".
If we have this menu item then it may be worth also adding "Copy Selected Labels" and "Paste Selected Label".
It may then be worth splitting them off into a sub-menu of their own, which would make selected label operations easier to find.
IF we start using right click menus, then the "selected label operations" could perhaps be moved from the Edit menu into a right click menu when labels are selected.
Or we could just kill the idea before it sees the light of day

I can definitely see a user doing that, but that is not how label deletion works via Edit > Remove Audio or Labels, because that menu works on selections (like most of Edit Menu).

The naive user will probably not see the distinction that you are making.
They selected a label, and expected the "selected" label to be deleted, not the entire (not selected) project.

In the image below we want to delete labels "er" and "34343" but not "short", "545" or overlap, and we don't want to modify the containing label "mas".

How we would do that with the proposed patch:

• Select the "er" label
• Shift+ Delete
• Select the "34343" label
• Shift+ Delete

How we would do it now without the patch:

• Select the "er" label
• Delete or backspace (depending on exactly where the text cursor is)
• Delete or backspace (depending on exactly where the text cursor is)
• Delete
• Select the "34343" label
• Delete or backspace (depending on exactly where the text cursor is)
• Delete or backspace (depending on exactly where the text cursor is)
• Delete or backspace (depending on exactly where the text cursor is)
• Delete or backspace (depending on exactly where the text cursor is)
• Delete or backspace (depending on exactly where the text cursor is)
• Delete

Surely what we want (as I have said many times) is multiple label selection?

If we ever get multiple label selection, then my proposal will be even better.

• Select the "er" label and the "34343" label
• Shift+ Delete

and there's no risk of accidentally deleting audio at the same time.

But you still have to wander into a cascading menu to find what the shortcut is

Yes, but it is a lot more discoverable than now:

The current version gives little indication that "Split Delete" can be used to remove a label:

Current version

current.png (92.93 KiB) Viewed 1468 times

The patched version is a lot more obvious:

Patched version

patched.png (63.93 KiB) Viewed 1468 times

I don't see in what way right-click (context key) is inaccessible.

Yes, the context key could be used (I keep forgetting about that because I never use it ).

I don't see in what way your solution is accessible, given the label track itself is inaccessible. The labels are not read out, so although you can read the selection from Selection Toolbar, you have no idea what labels are included in the selection without going into Labels Editor.

Labels are certainly less functional for visually impaired users. I don't know to what extent they are used, but you can tab into them, then Enter, then Space to play.
With the proposed patch, you could then remove the label after playing it with Shift+Delete, rather than needing to tab over to it again (from the first tab) to delete it. ("Split Delete" will delete any selected audio and may leave point labels at each end. "Remove selected Labels" will do neither of these unwanted actions).


So far, Ed and myself are strongly in favour of this proposal. Ed has said that he finds this functionality "indispensable".
A while ago I was working on a number of complex multi-track projects, with lots of editing and lots of labels indicating where various parts were - I wish we had this functionality back then.

Split Delete/Split Cut were designed for editing audio tracks - they can sometimes be used to remove labels, but they are not an adequate substitute for a function that has been designed to do the job. It is really irritating to be in the flow of an editing job and then to get held up by "Can I remove this label like this... No that moves other labels... like this? .... no that deletes the audio as well... like this?... no that changes that label... " when all you actually want to do is to remove that darned label, which would be so simple if only there was a "Remove Label" option.


I would definitely like to hear opinions from other users that have tried it - is anyone able and willing to build binaries for Windows and/or Mac with this feature?
Here is the patch that is needed to build Audacity with this feature:

RemoveSelectedLabels-04b.patch

(2.16 KiB) Downloaded 68 times

[Gale Andrews]

we do have Edit > Remove Audio or Labels > Split Cut ( or Split Delete)

That is a reasonable workaround in some situations, but it's not a full replacement for a simple way to remove labels.

But surely that deletes not just the labels but the selected label region as well so any succeeding labels are shifted leftwards on the timeline.

Try it

The point of Split Cut and Split Delete is that it does not affect the following labels or audio:
http://manual.audacityteam.org/o/man/ed ... #split_cut .

I seem to recall that in an earlier version of Audacity using Ctrl+L with part of a label track selected would in fact do what has been requested and delete the labels without any shifting of subsequent labels - but that seemed to disappear in later versions.

Yes you're right - Edit > Silence did exactly that, but it was too clumsy for people who wanted to silence the audio but not the label - they had to first deselect the label track - and those people were very persistent they did not want Silence to remove labels. Plus, because you cannot really "silence" a label, many people did not even realise that it did remove labels.


Gale

[Gale Andrews]

If it even had a button (as well as the menu item) - for example in the Label Track Control Panel - I would be much happier with it.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. What would the button do?

The same as Edit > Remove Audio or Labels > Remove Selected Labels ?

Then perhaps we have something more discoverable and substantial to "start" on.



Gale

[waxcylinder]

Try it

Wow that's useful - you learn something new every day (well I try to ...)

Peter

[Gale Andrews]

I can definitely see a user doing that, but that is not how label deletion works via Edit > Remove Audio or Labels, because that menu works on selections (like most of Edit Menu).

The naive user will probably not see the distinction that you are making.
They selected a label, and expected the "selected" label to be deleted, not the entire (not selected) project.

They will do the same with your patched build I think, which will either do nothing or delete a label character. That user needs a delete button on the label.

It does raise a question over whether SHIFT + DELETE should go ahead and delete the label when it's open for editing, rather than do the same as DELETE. I think it should delete the label. If it did that, and with a button on the Label Track Control Panel, it might actually help that user.

That would raise an issue of what that Label Track Control Panel button should do if you have two label tracks selected. I think it would override what the menu item does and only delete the labels in its own track. I think that would be better than an Edit Toolbar button that did exactly what the menu item did, because the button would be harder to find.

In the image below we want to delete labels "er" and "34343" but not "short", "545" or overlap, and we don't want to modify the containing label "mas".

How we would do that with the proposed patch:

• Select the "er" label
• Shift+ Delete
• Select the "34343" label
• Shift+ Delete

No, step 3 will also remove the "short" label.

there's no risk of accidentally deleting audio at the same time.

I concur with that - you don't need to deselect the audio track to just delete the label. But for any more than one label you would most times select over the labels immediately before SHIFT + DELETE, so that would deselect other tracks.

With the proposed patch, you could then remove the label after playing it with Shift+Delete, rather than needing to tab over to it again (from the first tab) to delete it.

If you can find the shortcut to do it. And VI users would probably still do it with Labels Editor so they knew the text of the label they were deleting.

So far, Ed and myself are strongly in favour of this proposal. Ed has said that he finds this functionality "indispensable".

If you have entirely overlapping labels (without more than one layer of nesting), or if you have "Retain labels..." on in Interface Preferences, maybe.


Gale

[steve]

They will do the same with your patched build I think,

They won't accidentally delete audio using this new feature.

It does raise a question over whether SHIFT + DELETE should go ahead and delete the label when it's open for editing, rather than do the same as DELETE

If the user prefers to be able to delete the selected labels even when a label is open for editing, they can choose this behaviour by changing the key binding to a non-printable sequence (for example Ctrl+Shift+H).

That would raise an issue of what that Label Track Control Panel button should do

I'm still not sure what you mean by "that Label Track Control Panel button".
Are you suggesting having label editing button(s) in the Label Track Control Panel? Edit buttons of any sort in track control panels would be quite a radical departure.

No, step 3 will also remove the "short" label.

Ah yes - I missed that the "short" label was entirely nested in the "34343" label, (though that would be obvious once the "34343" label was selected.
As the function "removes selected labels", it is expected behaviour that the short nested label will also be removed. If the user did not want to delete that label then they would need to delete the "34343" label manually by the old method, or adjust the "34343" label before deleting so that it did not completely overlap.

I don't see this as a "limitation" or "bug", but rather as outside the scope of what the feature does, in the same way as if you select three audio clips and want to delete the first and third but not the middle one, you can't do that with any of the cut or delete functions.

But for any more than one label you would most times select over the labels immediately before SHIFT + DELETE, so that would deselect other tracks.

... assuming that you are working with just one label track, but very often you will be deleting just one label, in which case "Click -> Enter -> Shift+Delete" is very convenient.

2. A command that deletes all labels lying entirely within the selected region of label track(s). Perhaps not the Backspace and Delete keys, as the intention may be to delete audio in the synch-locked tracks, but a new command that is one easy keystroke.

What's your real objection to this Gale?
Is it that you don't think it is useful at all, or that you think it is useful but would prefer a different implementation, such as a right click menu option?