Audacity Forum

waxcylinder wrote:Actually there were 3 things missing at the time
3) an ability to categoraization on/off

Well if categories are fully customisable, then the user could chose to dump all of their effects into the root menu, which would effectively be the same as no categorisation.

waxcylinder wrote:This is now in the proposal (and I moved it higher up the list of details yesterday to give it a bit more prominence).

See: http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Propo ... ffect_Menu

Super
Where would be the best place to comment on the proposal? (overall I agree and would like to give my support, but there are some implementation details that I don't agree with - I don't want to scupper the ship before it sails )

You folks know your business better than I, of course. However, I wanted to volunteer some comments, please.

As I've been trying to visualize the suggestions pertaining to the Effects menu, I worry whether taking one path to a solution might disappoint many users who may prefer the second-most-favorite solution. Maybe the developers have already considered this? I hope so. Is there a way to implement the two most popular solutions?

Customizable Toolbar -- I suppose it's easier said than done, but if I had my druthers, I think I'd like a customizable tool bar where users can add "links" (function buttons or icons) for the effects they use most frequently. Maybe this has been mentioned?

Categorizing -- And then, for the other effects that I use less frequently, I wanted to indicate my opposition to categorizing them. Categorizing IS a big plus for the "newbie" who'd like to see all the offerings available for a given category. On the other hand, once someone knows the effects they want, then the extra click (or hover) to select the category you want is just an extra, potentially annoying step, in my view.

When you "categorize," sometimes this is counter-productive. I guess it depends on the user, or maybe it's just me. I'll explain why I feel this way about categorizing the effects. Imagine using a dictionary and you already pretty much know how the word is spelled, but to find the word, you first need to know the word's part of speech. You might know the part of speech, or you might not. But since you already know the spelling, having to know the part of speech -- or the category of the effect -- is just an extra step between you and the word you want ... or between the Audacity user and the effect they want.

Another analogy: the Yellow Pages. If you don't know which business you're looking for, you might initially want to use the "yellow section" where the businesses are arranged within their respective business categories. But what if you're already familiar with the business and its name, and you need to find the entry again? Since there are several related business categories, finding the correct business category will only slow you down. That's where I'd use the white pages section instead by going directly to the correct business name.

Is this making sense? I don't know whether any of the above fits into your plans, but as I think of the way I use the Effects menu, I'm pretty sure I'd not like categorizing them.

Keyboard Shortcuts -- As I'm using Windows, although I do enjoy using certain keyboard shortcuts, for Audacity purposes, my hand is almost always on my mouse. So going for the keyboard is not a viable solution in my opinion.

To recap -- While categorizing the effects DOES have a benefit, I think that benefit might soon change to an annoyance UNLESS the Audacity user has a quick and direct way of finding familiar effects again. Having to remember the category would just get in the way, I feel.

In "my perfect world," having categories of effects is good, but not later on when I know the effects I want. That's where an editable toolbar would be nice. If the toolbar isn't easy/affordable, then perhaps a set of options in Audacity's Preferences could be added that would allow a convenient way to check effects I want to use; other effects left unchecked would preclude them from appearing on the Effects menu, and possibly prevent them from loading, too.

Again ... I pray my ideas are taken the right way. Most of all, I hope I'm not asking for too much. You folks certainly know better than I, but I just wanted to throw in these ideas.

Good luck, folks!

TonyVA408 wrote:

waxcylinder wrote:@Tony: would you like me to add your vote for this to the Wiki>Feature requests and the proposal.

@Wax ... Sure, that sounds fine with me. Yes, please add my vote.

Done.

WC

steve wrote:Where would be the best place to comment on the proposal? (overall I agree and would like to give my support, but there are some implementation details that I don't agree with - I don't want to scupper the ship before it sails )

@Steve I would suggest the proposal itself - such proposals are usually joint efforts (and better for it). You have full elf/gnome editing facilies enabled on the Wiki so editing is available to you. I would recommend annotating changes that you make with your name and the date to help with tracking.

One of the key sections in which to add your support is "Developer/QA Backing " - and note that that's where supporters normally mention which parts of the proposal they support. And do note that the proposal is far more extensive than just effects categorization.

WC

TonyVA408 wrote: However, I wanted to volunteer some comments, please.

User feedback is always very much appreciated. Of course that does not mean that you'll get exactly what you want because there are millions of other users to consider, but direct user feedback is invaluable information without which we can only guess what people need.

TonyVA408 wrote:Customizable Toolbar -- I suppose it's easier said than done, but if I had my druthers, I think I'd like a customizable tool bar where users can add "links" (function buttons or icons) for the effects they use most frequently. Maybe this has been mentioned?

There is already a feature request listed on the wiki:

Customisable Toolbar: (6 votes) add/remove/move items from/between toolbars (similar to customising the toolbars in Firefox) and create a personal toolbar with just the icons you use heavily yourself (then you can hide all the other toolbars to save space)

but I think that your suggestion is a little bit different from that - You're suggesting that there should be an "Effects Toolbar" that can be customised?

TonyVA408 wrote:Categorizing IS a big plus for the "newbie" who'd like to see all the offerings available for a given category

It is also a big plus for users that have a lot of effects installed.
If a user has 200+ effects, it is a pain to have to scroll down a huge list to find the effect that they want. Windows users can type the first letter of the effect name to jump to that letter in the effects list, but what if they cant remember if an effect is called "VST anwida reverb light" or "Anwida reverb lite" or "Reverb Anwida Lite" or "DX Reverb Lite"? If all of the reverb effects were in a Reverb category, then they could just open that category and see it immediately without scrolling up and down the menu searching for it.

Past experience with Effect categories has demonstrated the strength of feeling about this feature, which is why any new implementation of categories must include an option to not have categories.

TonyVA408 wrote: I think that benefit might soon change to an annoyance UNLESS the Audacity user has a quick and direct way of finding a familiar effect again.

Which is why I think that there should be a top level "root" category where users can put their most commonly used effects.
For example, when clicking on the Effect menu, the menu list could be customised to be (example only, the user to decide) something like this: Where Amplify, Fade In, Fade Out and Normalize have been place in the root menu, and four custom categories created for Other Favourites, Filters, Reverbs, and Everything Else.


I know that keyboard shortcuts don't suit everyone. Audacity is about the only program in which I regularly use keyboard shortcuts. Right hand on the mouse, left hand on the keyboard. For common operations like cut, paste, delete... it is a lot quicker to Ctrl+X, Ctrl+V, Del than mouse up to the Edit menu and select the function. Unfortunately as a user of "Nyquist Workbench" the keyboard shortcuts regularly stop working, which is when I appreciate just how much they speed up my workflow.

TonyVA408 wrote:then perhaps a set of options in Audacity's Preferences could be added that would allow a convenient way to check effects I want to use; other effects left unchecked would preclude them from appearing on the Effects menu, and possibly prevent them from loading, too.

The thing that complicates that idea considerably is third party plug-ins. I imagine that it would be relatively easy to do for built in effects, but for VST plug-ins, Audacity does not know which plug-ins exist until it has loaded them.

steve wrote: ... but I think that your suggestion is a little bit different from that - You're suggesting that there should be an "Effects Toolbar" that can be customised?

Yes, that's correct Steve. A customizable toolbar. With widescreen monitors being so popular these days, in addition to a toolbar for a user's favorite effects, perhaps other popular menu commands could be represented on the toolbar, too? It's just an idea.

I'm going to feel pretty foolish if some of these features I've mentioned already exist; I don't know ALL there is to know about plans for Audacity. But I think a customizable toolbar would be really nice. However, as I say "customizable toolbar," I'm referring to the kind used in older versions of Microsoft Office PRIOR TO introduction of their "ribbon" in 2007. [I heard Microsoft's "ribbon" may be customizable, too, but it's simply too bulky. Much screen space is wasted. That drastic change precipitated the popularity of a third-party add-on that restores the traditional menu layout.]

Not wanting to assume you've envisioned my above references to the terms "ribbon" and "toolbar," I've attached two graphics. "New space-hogging function ribbon" (below) shows Microsoft's main/home ribbon for the current version of their word processor.
"Traditional compact toolbars" (below) is from a competing product depicting the more traditional title bar and menu arrangement, which also includes two rows of compact, efficiently-spaced functional icons and setting/selection pull-downs.
@Steve: You're very kind to reply so thoroughly. Seeing as how you're obviously familiar with the many pending suggestions, etc., you saved me the trouble of acquainting myself with Audacity's many recent considerations. From your great reply, I can easily see you folks are definitely on top of this. Trying to satisfy so many competing preferences isn't an easy job.

I think I'm done here. Thanks very much, folks, and good luck!

steve wrote:

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I really like this solution - YOU decide what to put in the main Effects menu, but all the others are still available in sub-menus, according to YOUR wishes. And correct me if I'm wrong, but this works for Visually Impaired, true?

By the way, I quote this as an example of my second-choice setup - I don't really need to categorize Everything Else, I can deal with them as they are today, provided that they're pushed to a second-level menu. I just want two levels: Top Choices, and Everything Else.