Help in other languages

[steve]

As I've said before I think a structural solution something like subdomains for each locale as part of a Wiki family are the way to go.

As multi-language support in MediaWiki is only at the "proposal" stage (so the software is not likely to properly support multiple language versions any time soon) I'd agree that looks like the best way to go. Setting that up should be pretty straightforward though I imagine that moving translated content over to the new subdomain may be a lot of extra work for someone.

I think that this needs looking at closely by someone that has a good knowledge of how the wiki works. If new subdomains are set up it may still be possible for the translated languages to use the same database. If so then copying data over could be much quicker by manipulating the database rather than the arduous task of manually copying pages.

Perhaps if the "closest to completion" translations (French, possibly German?) were moved and either untranslated pages copied in English or "place holder" empty pages created for each untranslated page, then that could serve as an encouragement for users to get involved. It would be very easy and very obvious for users to see what needs to be done. Does anyone know if this is technically possible? (I've never administrated a MediaWiki).

This topic probably is not a "Adding features to Audacity" page. Is there somewhere more appropriate to move it to?

[edgar-rft]

... possibly German?

In the last three weeks I had more than 1000 clicks on the text box in the German forum, but not a single translation volunteer. The German forum has approx. 4500 members, so to me this reads as "approx. a quarter of the registered users are not interested in having a German translation". We must be careful, because statistics are always wrong. Many German people *can* read English manuals and the most stupids have probably clicked several times.

But fact is that as long as there is not a single translation votunteer, the German translation will continue veeeeryyyyy sloooooooooowww...

- edgar

[steve]

and the most stupids have probably clicked several times.

Perhaps they are "hopeful" rather than "stupid".

We all know that 95% of statistics are made up (including this one).

I'm sure that you understand the German psyche better than I, but if you had a German manual subdomain then you could have a custom notice at the top of each untranslated page with words to the effect:

"Would you prefer to read this page in German? If you understand this English version then you can help to bring Audacity to the German people. To join our enthusiastic team of translators click HERE"

[edgar-rft]

Perhaps they are "hopeful" ...

Of course they are hopeful, because there is a big headline "Where do I get the German Audacity manuals?" and then inside the text box there are two small links to the alpha manual and the outdated German manual, and 95% of the page are detailed explanations "How do I translate the English alpha manual to get a German manual", and only very low at the page, after the explanations (so everybody must see them), a copy of the Navigation bar (the left side of the alpha manual) with links to all translated German pages.

... if you had a German manual subdomain then you could have a custom notice at the top of each untranslated page ...

Gale came up with the idea to add a localized "Translate me!" button to the navigation bar on the left side, but then we discovered that we couldn't translate the "Translate me!" button...

- edgar

[steve]

but then we discovered that we couldn't translate the "Translate me!" button...

-> ->
Rolling eyes indeed.

[waxcylinder]

BUMP

I'm assuming that I don't need to transfer this to Wiki>PFR - correct?

WC

[steve]

I'd like to modify this proposed feature.

Please note that a simple redirection to a translated start page is not sufficient, because all the links in the navigation bar on the left side will throw you back to the English manual.

Little of the manual is available in other languages.
When viewed in Google Translate, links are translated and go to translated pages.

what I propose is:

Link for translated manual from the Audacity Help menu.
For the Help menu,something like:
________________________________
About Audacity
Quick Help (In web browser)
Manual (In web browser)
Translated Manual (Google Translate)
________________________________
Screenshot Tools...
________________________________
Run Benchmark...
________________________________
Audio Device Info...
Show Log...
________________________________

* A suggested implementation is to link to the on-line manual if the Audacity language setting is non-English and redirect server-side according to country code.
If possible then for the extra "Translated Manual (Google Translate)" option to only appear if the localised language is non English.

[Gale Andrews]

Google Translate could be implemented if necessary merely by clicking on a country fhag on arrival in the English Manual.

I've mentioned Google Translate at least four times where developers would read it and there was never any comment about that even if they answered some other part of it. So I would assume they don't want to do that because of the perceived quality of the translations (which will be difficult because of technical vocabulary).

I do quite often give Google-Translated links to the Manual to non-English people who write to [email protected], but almost never receive any feedback or other response. To Edgar - is this Google Translation of Extended Import Preferences usable? I see that Wikipedia consensus is that "an unedited machine translation, left as a Wikipedia article, is worse than nothing."

Does this help us: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Translate ? If translators are happier working with messages they cannot see the context of, perhaps it helps? I don't like how one of the prominent users of this extension http://userbase.kde.org/An_introduction_to_KDE boot you out of your chosen language when you click a link on a translated page, even though the link is translated. That doesn't happen on Wikipedia after using the Interlanguage links in the sidebar.


Gale

[edgar-rft]

First paragraph of Extended Import Preferences (text in the blue box):

Extended Import preferences let you designate the order in which specific import libraries are tried when importing audio files with named extensions, with an option to over-ride the "Open" and "Import Audio" file type choice.

Re-translation from German (or what Google thinks it's German) to English:

Extended import preferences can you define, in what order specific import libraries try at import of audio files with names are extensions, with an option to drive over upon the "Open" and "Importing audio" file type election.

Reading this mess makes me come to the following conclusions:

• I can define my own "Extended import" preferences, on top of the preferences that already exist.

• There is no difference between names and extensions, because both are the same.

• I can drive (with a car) over or upon "Open" and "Importing audio".

• There must be somewhere a political election where I can choose between "Open" and "Importing audio", which both are file types.

The rest of the German "translation" is the same kind of nonsense.

The problem is that computer programming languages are defined by a clearly specified set of words, and if you make a typo in one of these words then you will get a "syntax error" or some similar message. Have you ever got a "syntax error" if you made a typo in an email? Human languages are evolved from traditional human habits. They have no clearly defined set of words, and even worse, all human languages are permanently changing.

Of course not all words change every day, but a few years ago I had a phone conversation with the German "Duden" publishers (the "Duden" is something like the "Oxford Dictionary" for German language) because I wanted to know wether there exists a computer readable list of all German words with their correct spelling and they told me that they have given up maintaining a complete list of all words already more than hundred years ago, because every year there appear new words while others are used less often as time goes by. The only thing they could offer was a probably incomplete data base with hints how "obsolete" a specific word is according to statistics made by language teachers and literature people.

This means that not even professionals have a working solution for reliable machine translation of human languages.

I still need to take a closer look at the MediaWiki and KDE stuff...

- edgar

[edgar-rft]

Does this help us: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Translate? If translators are happier working with messages they cannot see the context of, perhaps it helps?

No, the opposite is the case. Translators are only happy if they can see the full context. In case of the Audacity GUI this is acceptable because it would be too much pain for the C/C++ developers to provide the full context for every string, but the reason why the translation of the Audacity homepage is in such a [#%$!] state is that it's pure pain for the translators to translate long sentences if they can't see the context.

I don't like how one of the prominent users of this extension http://userbase.kde.org/An_introduction_to_KDE boot you out of your chosen language when you click a link on a translated page, even though the link is translated. That doesn't happen on Wikipedia after using the Interlanguage links in the sidebar.

I don't get thrown out of the German translation if I click on a link in the German text or in the German sidebar on that page. Maybe this happens only if there is no German translation available for a specific link? Or maybe they have a special trick to find out that you're working from an English system?

- edgar