RMS Normalize seems to undo everything else

[spearcarrier]

Disclaimer: I did look for the answer before coming here to ask my question. And I'm really not sure I'm asking in the right section - y'all know how I have trouble figuring out where to go right. No? I have trouble figuring out where to go.

I have an audio file and am trying to get it to meet ACX requirements. I think I have recorded this #### thing too many times and I'm sick of it. When it comes to recording quality I'm recording as high as I can go and to keep doing more is nothing but a repeat of insanity.

That being said, this file has had noise reduction set to it by a level of 10. Yep, low. I just really hate air I guess.

I follow ACX's instructions and it won't pass RMS check.
I follow the instructions here... it wont' pass RMS check.

The problem is when I apply RMS Normalize, it works alright... and appears to undo any normalization I have done. It just puts everything down to a quieter level. Which... is annoying to say the least. I want the peaks leveled at around -4 to -3 because that's what ACX recommends. I don't want -8 or -9 which is what RMS is putting it to. Continously.

I *have read* explanations on RMS that are here in this forum. Being kinesthetic I don't get it, probably never will, and quite frankly all I'm gathering about RMS is that it's this pointless thing to watch for because you can't have a certain level of loudness that's recommend AND RMS compliance at the same time. It's like oil and water, I swear.

Bad enough limiter doesn't want to limit with the latest version of Audacity. Grumble.

I am at my wit's end here!! Suggestions?

[DVDdoug]

If you amplify (linearly) by +3dB, the RMS and the peaks will both go up by 3dB. The difference between peak & RMS doesn't change*. And, normalization is a linear volume change.

Compression and/or limiting can bring the RMS & peaks closer together. (Clipping will do the same thing, since it's a kind of "nasty" limiting.)

If your peak & RMS levels are already too close together, you've got too much compression/limiting, or the audio may have been clipped at some point. There's not much you can do about that... There is expansion (the opposite of compression) but the odds are, expansion would screw-up the sound, and expansion is very-rarely used in audio except for a noise gate which is a kind of extreme downward-expansion.

Bad enough limiter doesn't want to limit with the latest version of Audacity. Grumble.

It works perfectly for me, but if I understand your problem limiting is the last thing you need.




* It's a ratio but since decibels are logarithmic the difference (subtraction) is a ratio.

[steve]

I want the peaks leveled at around -4 to -3 because that's what ACX recommends. I don't want -8 or -9 which is what RMS is putting it to

The usual case is that after getting the RMS level right, there are peaks that are too high and you then need to use a compressor or limiter to bring the peaks down a bit, but you have the reverse problem. That suggests tha you have already used too much compression and / or limiting.

If you post a short (about 10 seconds) audio sample to the forum, then we may be able to suggest what, if any, processing is required.
The audio clip should be a raw, totally unprocessed recording, starting with a couple of seconds of "silence" (room ambiance), followed by a few seconds of speech. It should be mono and in WAV format. See here for how to post an audio sample viewtopic.php?f=49&t=72887 (10 seconds mono may be uploaded directly to the forum).

[spearcarrier]

Well with this latest version I'm not running any compression at all anymore. I start with noise reduction, then RMS normalize, and let's face it. Sound peaks are bad, and I've had people accuse me of that even when I have no idea how to identify such things and - and you know what? I'm thinking this is just too ### hard anymore. I've been trying to learn how to produce a good file for over a year now and just can't do it. No offense, but at least one of your replies is WAY over my head despite reading stuff repeatedly. I know why: I can't put any of the information into physical practice and when you look around for "suggested settings" on things to you can experiment and figure things out all you get are posts telling people there are no golden settings... well I KNOW that... that's not why I want them. *bangs head on desk*

Anyway, rant over on that. I have this RAW untouched file I'm working from. If I run RMS normalization it goes. If I do anything you're expected to do in the process after that RMS gets undone. However you DO need things normalized and even or your file is probably going to get rejected from some place. (Sounds peaks, for example, are a reason to be rejected at casting call club. Even if you are sure there aren't any. Apparently.) Run normalize and RMS is undone. Run RMS and Normalize is not only undone but the file is put too quiet.

Any limiter has stopped working for me. In the beginning of this venture I'd run it and things would amp up a little and level out. Now? It just runs and does nothing. Hard limiter, limiter using soft limiting, the works.

So looking at this, perhaps I need someone to.. uh.. hold my hand? I know it sounds crazy but no. Seriously. Following the instructions blindly only undoes the things they're supposed to settle and fix. I'm REAL tired of discovering that RMS is at -15 after I'd set it to -20 I don't know how many times.

I will try to figure out how to post a sound clip. Thank you for offering to look.

BTW for info's sake I'm running:
The latest Audacity
with a Blue Yeti mic inside a curtain soundbooth
Windows 7, because Windows 10 is the devil.

[spearcarrier]

]Let's see if this will work now... a sample...

sample.wav

(875.07 KiB) Downloaded 37 times

[kozikowski]

Did you apply an corrections before you posted that? It's massively distorted.

Please create a new short clip according to these instructions.

http://www.kozco.com/tech/audacity/Test ... _Clip.html

Do Not apply any corrections.


There are two different mastering techniques and you can get all balled up by either mixing the corrections or making bad assumptions of what's supposed to be happening.

Lets start with the specs. It does not say you have to hit peaks at -3dB. It says you can't have peaks higher than -3dB. That's an overload specification and has little or nothing to do with quality of audio.

RMS is an electrical measurement (Root Mean Square) which just so happens to work out to loudness. So that's really a loudness range. -18dB to -24dB.

The last one is also an upper limit. When you stop talking, the background noise can't be any louder than -60dB. Any measurement more quiet than that is OK, although if you make it too quiet, you may trigger a largely unpublished fourth specification. You can't beat your voice with a stick to force it into compliance. They have a failure called "Overprocessing."

Nobody's interested in hearing a fuzzy "cellphone voice" in their headphones. The ACX goal is listening to someone telling you a fascinating story over cups of tea in the (quiet) kitchen.

I don't see any problem with your setup except possibly computer noises. But we'll see about that when you post your forum test. There is a fuzzy rule for that. Can you tell if your computer is on by listening?

Koz

[kozikowski]

spearcarrier

Please let that be a reference to a Valkyrie.

Screen Shot 2018-03-29 at 11.08.32.png (69.7 KiB) Viewed 756 times

Koz

[spearcarrier]

Before I post another clip I have to ask: it is?? I had posted an unedited RAW clip. I hadn't even applied noise filter yet. Each time I muck it up I've been going back to the very beginning and starting over. That file doesn't even have all of the stutters and mistakes taken out yet.

It doesn't sound distorted to me over here. But, could that be the root of the problem? How distorted? In what way? I have to use both headphones and speakers alternately. I thought maybe my headphones were blown (they get that way and then I have to buy new ones) but maybe not.

I have my mic recording level set to 65% through sound in Windows - doing so manually on the mic can produce uneven recordings from chapter to chapter if the dial gets touched or what have you. This technique seems to save me the effort of trying to set things equally from project to project. I had turned it up to see if that effected RMS differently. (I do experiment. I just also get frustrated.)

So by what you're telling me, if I aim for -18 RMs then it won't be so low it will drive me bonkers. I'm used to having to compensate for a partially deaf veteran over here.

But perhaps I should re-examine my setup?

Spearcarrier: not a valkyrie although I do use one as a logo from time to time. Nice image there. It's actually an earned name and I'm the first 'Spearcarrier' handle user on the net. Yes. I've been around a long long time, which is probably why these new fangled recording doohickeys make me go "eh?" and, "GET OFF'N MAH LAWN."

EDIt: The loud computer is turned off for recording sessions. The computer That Must Run.. you have to listen but you can tell it's on.

[kozikowski]

Before I post another clip I have to ask: it is??

Ummmm. I'm trying to figure the direction to go with this.

See those flat tops and bottoms? Voices don't do that. That's sound damage somewhere.

Screen Shot 2018-03-29 at 11.23.29.png (14.64 KiB) Viewed 755 times

This is my sample voice test picture.



Don't worry about two blue waves versus one. That's a piffle to solve in post production. Some microphones don't work right unless they record in stereo (two waves).

???

Blue Yeti mic inside a curtain soundbooth

There should be no way to get damage like this with a Yeti. They can do other things wrong, but that's not one of them.

This is me staring at the screen. Ummmmmm.

There are two Yetis. There is a Yeti Pro with a good quality analog audio connection in addition to the USB data cable. Do you have one of those? Then there is the conventional Yeti with just a normal USB socket and headphone socket in its butt.

Where are your headphones plugged in?

Koz

[kozikowski]

There is a status light in the middle of the MUTE button. Is it on? It starts flashing if you push MUTE.

Describe the setup. Laptop running Win7? One USB cable between the Yeti and the computer? Are you going through a hub or USB splitter?

Koz