Menu items and ellipses

[Robert J. H.]

Good. So are there any more cases of six dots?

All cases of six dots are gone.

The argument of consistency is the right one that you told on the page you linked. And for your information: In German no space indicates a character ellipsis (Kindergar..., Zeitgei...) and a space indicates a word ellipsis (Word1 word2 ... word4).

This is certainly true, alas, the so called ellipsis is in this case neither the former nor the latter.
We don't have an "Auslassung" but actually an indication that this item opens a new dialogue.
I do not even know if the Duden deals with that case.
What's more, the ellipsis has its own Unicode character and is denser than three dots.

[Gale Andrews]

the so called ellipsis is in this case neither the former nor the latter.
We don't have an "Auslassung" but actually an indication that this item opens a new dialogue.
I do not even know if the Duden deals with that case.
What's more, the ellipsis has its own Unicode character and is denser than three dots.

I noticed that, although with wx3 I cannot really tell the difference between three dots and the translator's character symbol when looking at the menu.

It this character a problem for screen readers?


Gale

[Robert J. H.]

the so called ellipsis is in this case neither the former nor the latter.
We don't have an "Auslassung" but actually an indication that this item opens a new dialogue.
I do not even know if the Duden deals with that case.
What's more, the ellipsis has its own Unicode character and is denser than three dots.

I noticed that, although with wx3 I cannot really tell the difference between three dots and the translator's character symbol when looking at the menu.

It this character a problem for screen readers?


Gale

To quote the German Wikipedia article on the "Auslassungszeichen":

Verwendung in grafischen Benutzeroberflächen[Bearbeiten]
In grafischen Benutzeroberflächen besagt eine bei Menüfunktionen oder Schaltflächen angehängte Ellipse, dass bei Anwahl ein weiterer Dialog folgt, in dem der Anwender weitere Eingaben machen kann oder muss. Fehlt hingegen die Ellipse, dann ist die Funktion mit der Anwahl allein bereits ausgeführt.
• „Speichern“ – es wird ohne weitere Eingabe die geöffnete Datei unter ihrem gleichen Namen abgespeichert.
• „Speichern unter …“ – im folgenden Dialog kann z. B. ein anderer Dateiname, ein anderes Dateiformat oder ein anderer Speicherort gewählt werden.

My screen reader says for "…" simply "Punkt Punkt Punkt" but faster than for "...".
However, some voices say also "Ellipsis" or "Auslassung", it depends on the definition for the symbol itself.
Since most users don't use a symbol level of "All", the symbol will not be spoken when the menu point is read.

In summary:
Ellipsis with preceding Space for German
Ellipsis with no Space for English
Three dots for French (points de suspension).) or Spanish.


Robert

[Gale Andrews]

the so called ellipsis is in this case neither the former nor the latter.
We don't have an "Auslassung" but actually an indication that this item opens a new dialogue.
I do not even know if the Duden deals with that case.
What's more, the ellipsis has its own Unicode character and is denser than three dots.

I noticed that, although with wx3 I cannot really tell the difference between three dots and the translator's character symbol when looking at the menu.

It this character a problem for screen readers?


Gale

To quote the German Wikipedia article on the "Auslassungszeichen":

Verwendung in grafischen Benutzeroberflächen[Bearbeiten]
In grafischen Benutzeroberflächen besagt eine bei Menüfunktionen oder Schaltflächen angehängte Ellipse, dass bei Anwahl ein weiterer Dialog folgt, in dem der Anwender weitere Eingaben machen kann oder muss. Fehlt hingegen die Ellipse, dann ist die Funktion mit der Anwahl allein bereits ausgeführt.
• „Speichern“ – es wird ohne weitere Eingabe die geöffnete Datei unter ihrem gleichen Namen abgespeichert.
• „Speichern unter …“ – im folgenden Dialog kann z. B. ein anderer Dateiname, ein anderes Dateiformat oder ein anderer Speicherort gewählt werden.

My screen reader says for "…" simply "Punkt Punkt Punkt" but faster than for "...".
However, some voices say also "Ellipsis" or "Auslassung", it depends on the definition for the symbol itself.
Since most users don't use a symbol level of "All", the symbol will not be spoken when the menu point is read.

In summary:
Ellipsis with preceding Space for German
Ellipsis with no Space for English
Three dots for French (points de suspension).) or Spanish.

I thought your complaint was about using a single non-spaced Unicode character in the German translation for an ellipsis, rather than using three dots.

How do you want the ellipsis to be entered into the PO files in German, and how do you want the ellipsis to be entered into the PO files in French and Spanish?

In other words, what is the distinction you are making above between "ellipsis" and "three dots"?


Gale

[Robert J. H.]

the so called ellipsis is in this case neither the former nor the latter.
We don't have an "Auslassung" but actually an indication that this item opens a new dialogue.
I do not even know if the Duden deals with that case.
What's more, the ellipsis has its own Unicode character and is denser than three dots.

I noticed that, although with wx3 I cannot really tell the difference between three dots and the translator's character symbol when looking at the menu.

It this character a problem for screen readers?


Gale

To quote the German Wikipedia article on the "Auslassungszeichen":

Verwendung in grafischen Benutzeroberflächen[Bearbeiten]
In grafischen Benutzeroberflächen besagt eine bei Menüfunktionen oder Schaltflächen angehängte Ellipse, dass bei Anwahl ein weiterer Dialog folgt, in dem der Anwender weitere Eingaben machen kann oder muss. Fehlt hingegen die Ellipse, dann ist die Funktion mit der Anwahl allein bereits ausgeführt.
• „Speichern“ – es wird ohne weitere Eingabe die geöffnete Datei unter ihrem gleichen Namen abgespeichert.
• „Speichern unter …“ – im folgenden Dialog kann z. B. ein anderer Dateiname, ein anderes Dateiformat oder ein anderer Speicherort gewählt werden.

My screen reader says for "…" simply "Punkt Punkt Punkt" but faster than for "...".
However, some voices say also "Ellipsis" or "Auslassung", it depends on the definition for the symbol itself.
Since most users don't use a symbol level of "All", the symbol will not be spoken when the menu point is read.

In summary:
Ellipsis with preceding Space for German
Ellipsis with no Space for English
Three dots for French (points de suspension).) or Spanish.

I thought your complaint was about using a single non-spaced Unicode character in the German translation for an ellipsis, rather than using three dots.

How do you want the ellipsis to be entered into the PO files in German, and how do you want the ellipsis to be entered into the PO files in French and Spanish?

In other words, what is the distinction you are making above between "ellipsis" and "three dots"?


Gale

According to the Wikipedia article, the GUI should use a Space, followed by an ellipsis Unicode character (for German).
However, my Windows Explorer (also in German) attaches just three dots to the menu item - as in Spanish or French (and probably also for English, if no Unicode is used).

I do personally favour the latter method - three dots without a Space.
All clear now?

Robert

[h-h]

I think three dots are just a "less professional" way for the ellipsis that also has its own Unicode character. A really great user interface would also take no-break spaces into consideration, the correct dash lengths and would use a number of other Unicode symbols, e.g. minus. But that's something not taken serious or its considered a minor minor minor issue. If a user interface would even use the correct system font size, much would be won.

[Robert J. H.]

I think three dots are just a "less professional" way for the ellipsis that also has its own Unicode character. A really great user interface would also take no-break spaces into consideration, the correct dash lengths and would use a number of other Unicode symbols, e.g. minus.

In computer science, first comes the usage and the rules afterwards and they are naturally dictated by the majority which in this case consists of major companies and an English based GUI.

In my opinion, the three dots after a menu entry are a random choice by any obscure GUI developer and afterwards artificially connected to the ellipsis symbol.
One can as well compare them to a table of contents, where the lines are just filled up with dots.
It is just an indication that there is more to follow - a dialogue in the GUI case and a page number in the TOC case.


In a lot of places, Utf-8 is not available but only e.g. Latin-1 or another code page.
Try e.g. "Sample Data Export" (Analyze menu) to a file like "Hörbaispiel", it won't be saved correctly.

What's more, assistance technology (screen reader) has a lot of Unicode Characters not defined per se. Especially the minus sign comes in a lot of versions and is not always correctly assigned.

But that's something not taken serious or its considered a minor minor minor issue. If a user interface would even use the correct system font size, much would be won.

Do you mean the correct Dpi scaling here?

Robert
Robert

[h-h]

Do you mean the correct Dpi scaling here?

No, Windows 8.1 lets you set a general scaling for UI elements and additionally change the font size for different purposes.

[Gale Andrews]

To quote the German Wikipedia article on the "Auslassungszeichen":

Verwendung in grafischen Benutzeroberflächen[Bearbeiten]
In grafischen Benutzeroberflächen besagt eine bei Menüfunktionen oder Schaltflächen angehängte Ellipse, dass bei Anwahl ein weiterer Dialog folgt, in dem der Anwender weitere Eingaben machen kann oder muss. Fehlt hingegen die Ellipse, dann ist die Funktion mit der Anwahl allein bereits ausgeführt.
• „Speichern“ – es wird ohne weitere Eingabe die geöffnete Datei unter ihrem gleichen Namen abgespeichert.
• „Speichern unter …“ – im folgenden Dialog kann z. B. ein anderer Dateiname, ein anderes Dateiformat oder ein anderer Speicherort gewählt werden.

My screen reader says for "…" simply "Punkt Punkt Punkt" but faster than for "...".
However, some voices say also "Ellipsis" or "Auslassung", it depends on the definition for the symbol itself.
Since most users don't use a symbol level of "All", the symbol will not be spoken when the menu point is read.

In summary:
Ellipsis with preceding Space for German
Ellipsis with no Space for English
Three dots for French (points de suspension).) or Spanish.

I thought your complaint was about using a single non-spaced Unicode character in the German translation for an ellipsis, rather than using three dots.

How do you want the ellipsis to be entered into the PO files in German, and how do you want the ellipsis to be entered into the PO files in French and Spanish?

In other words, what is the distinction you are making above between "ellipsis" and "three dots"?


Gale

According to the Wikipedia article, the GUI should use a Space, followed by an ellipsis Unicode character (for German).
However, my Windows Explorer (also in German) attaches just three dots to the menu item - as in Spanish or French (and probably also for English, if no Unicode is used).

I do personally favour the latter method - three dots without a Space.
All clear now?

Robert

If space and the ellipsis character are not causing problems, it is probably simplest for the translators to leave it like that and add a trailing space to translations of effects.

It's probably unlikely developers will change to using the ellipsis character for effects when language is German, unless some user contributes a patch or Git pull request to to so.


Gale