Audacity Forum

I agree "vinyl mush" is a loss of fidelity but (being used to both vinyl and live music) so is the very hard-to-describe coldness/hardness/loss of sound stage in CD's a loss of fidelity. All the strands are clear in CD's yet the strands still gell into each other/don't breathe properly in the environment somehow. I just lose concentration after a few minutes.

WAV's recorded from analogue vinyl are much more tolerable to my ears.

Also agreed that vinyl noise covers the signal in quiet music but the poor quality of soft signals in CD's seems very noticeable to me given that very absence of background noise. I agree 24-bit CD's are better in that regard.


Gale

I was resistant to buying CDs when they first came out - but then a friend of mine, who was a professional photographer, got a commission for a photo-shoot with Simon Rattle for an album release. During the shoot he played music on his new CD player and told her how excellent he thought the fidelity of the reproduction was.

If CDs are good enough for one of the world's major conductors who hears live music from the some of the best orchestras in the world - then they are good enough for me.

WC

Gale Andrews wrote: ...a loss of fidelity ... is the very hard-to-describe coldness/hardness/loss of sound stage in CD's a loss of fidelity. All the strands are clear in CD's yet the strands still gell into each other/don't breathe properly in the environment somehow. I just lose concentration after a few minutes.

A lot is down to the quality of the CD player and its DAC (just as it is with the TT/arm/cart for vinyl).

When my original Philips 104 died the hi-fi shop in town sold me a Rega Planet. The difference was astounding (even Mrs Waxcylinder noticed the difference) - in comparison the Rega seems to have a much better, firmer, grip on the sound-stage with well focussed placing of the performers (providing the recording has been engineered correctly - but that applies to LPs too).

My reference recording for this is the Sonny Rollins "The Bridge" album - I had the vinyl of this and now the CD and I much prefer the CD which seems to do the "breathing" that you write about Gale - in a way that the LP somehow didn't (excellent as it was).

WC

waxcylinder wrote:A lot is down to the quality of the CD player and its DAC (just as it is with the TT/arm/cart for vinyl).

Maybe so, but the difference in reproduction between the best and worst CD and vinyl setup respectively has got to be significantly greater in the case of the latter, especially considering some of the lightweight rubbish turntables sold in all in one setups from the late 80s through the 90s.

I must say I am also somewhat bemused by the positions taken by some of the prophets of the digital revolution in these debates. If the discussion relates to lossy vs lossless digital audio the insistence is that claims about which is better or worse **must** always be based on audibility/ABX testing.

Conversely when the discussion shifts to vinyl vs digital that set of criteria is swiftly binned. Instead the discussion must now be based on the - as commonly understood - pejorative concepts of noise (floor) and typically incomprehensible dBs (not 7s).

All without a trace of irony.

Shaky wrote:If the discussion relates to lossy vs lossless digital audio the insistence is that claims about which is better or worse **must** always be based on audibility/ABX testing.

Conversely when the discussion shifts to vinyl vs digital that set of criteria is swiftly binned.

In order to do ABX testing of CD vs Vinyl you would have to add convincing surface noise and crackle to the CD audio, but that would probably not be a fair test either.

steve wrote:

Shaky wrote:If the discussion relates to lossy vs lossless digital audio the insistence is that claims about which is better or worse **must** always be based on audibility/ABX testing.

Conversely when the discussion shifts to vinyl vs digital that set of criteria is swiftly binned.

In order to do ABX testing of CD vs Vinyl you would have to add convincing surface noise and crackle to the CD audio, but that would probably not be a fair test either.

Well when I listen to music on good quality vinyl I hear no noise whatsoever.

On the other hand if you are after the most silent silence then digital is undoubtedly the way to go!

Shaky wrote:Well when I listen to music on good quality vinyl I hear no noise whatsoever.

There is always some surface noise from vinyl - even on the original pressings, it can't be avoided due to the mechanical processes. With a really good set up and really good vinyl there won't be much, but it can't be avoided. On the other hand, CD has no surface noise. Thus it is not possible imho to do a fair ABX test. "Sound quality" is not just about surface noise, but the presence of surface noise on one but not in the other needs to be taken into account in an ABX test.

I have heard expensive CD players without being much more convinced.

Shaky wrote:the difference in reproduction between the best and worst CD and vinyl setup respectively has got to be significantly greater in the case of the latter, especially considering some of the lightweight rubbish turntables sold in all in one setups from the late 80s through the 90s.

Also some of the "lightweight rubbish" LP reissues of the 80s which I think are demonstrably inferior to CD in all but soundstage, let alone inferior to the original LP issues. I've never found a convincing explanation for just why a "Classics for Pleasure" 80s transfer of a vintage Columbia or HMV 60's stereo sounds so colourless and boring compared to the original LP's.

To be fair, Direct Metal Mastering LP's from the 80's and 90's were really very quiet - but for me, with the soundstage ironed out, even the faintest tick was a huge distraction.


Gale

steve wrote:There is always some surface noise from vinyl - even on the original pressings

I am not for a second disputing that. What I am saying is that certainly on my system it is inaudible except for during 'silent' gaps between tracks and at the end of fades.

However, when the music playing it is simply impossible to detect, although crackle and clicks are obviously a different matter.

Undermining this whole issue: http://www.audioholics.com/news/kids-pr ... uality-mp3
and at the other extreme: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html