Audacity Forum

Gale Andrews wrote:This one viewtopic.php?p=192917#p192917 .

I'm looking at this one and "Adjustable-Fade-v25-GUI" side by side.
It's quite a bit of work to code these up as fully functional plug-ins so I'd prefer to not do that for both when one will not be used.


Comparing what you would need to do for some tasks:

Linear Fade In:
Version 25 GUI

• Linear Fade In is the default

Version 25b GUI

• Linear Fade In is the default

Linear Fade Out:
Version 25 GUI

• Select "Simple Out (Linear)"

Version 25b GUI

• Select "Fade Out (linear)"

Linear Fade down by 6 dB:
Version 25 GUI

• Select "Simple Out (Linear)"
• Set "Low point gain" to -6 dB

Version 25b GUI

• Set "Use Preset or Controls" to "Use Controls"
• Set "Fade Direction" to "Fade Out"
• Set "Low point gain" to -6 dB

"S" shape fade down by 6 dB:
Version 25 GUI

• Set "Fade type" to "Sine Out ('S' shape)"
• Set "Low point gain" to -6 dB

Version 25b GUI

• Set "Use Preset or Controls" to "Use Controls"
• Set "Fade Direction" to "Fade Out"
• Set "Fade type" to "Sine Out ('S' shape)"
• Set "Low point gain" to -6 dB

Simple fade up by 3 dB with maximum curve:
Version 25 GUI

• Set "Mid-fade cut/boost" to +1
• Set "High point gain" to +3 dB

Version 25b GUI

• Set "Use Preset or Controls" to "Use Controls"
• Set "Mid-fade cut/boost" to +1
• Set "High point gain" to +3 dB

Sine fade down by 3 dB with minimum curve:
Version 25 GUI

• Set "Fade type" to "Sine Out ('S' shape"
• Set "Mid-fade cut/boost" to +1
• Set "High point gain" to +3 dB

Version 25b GUI

• Set "Use Preset or Controls" to "Use Controls"
• Set "Fade Direction" to "Fade Out"
• Set "Fade type" to "Sine Out ('S' shape)"
• Set "Mid-fade cut/boost" to +1
• Set "High point gain" to +3 dB

The work-flow is improved in most cases for Version 25b if the default for "Use Preset or Controls" is "Use Controls", but it is still often less efficient that Version 25 and there is the potential confusion in 25b that "Preset = Fade In" overrides "Fade direction = Fade Out" and "Preset = Fade Out" overrides "Fade direction = Fade In.

steve wrote:The work-flow is improved in most cases for Version 25b if the default for "Use Preset or Controls" is "Use Controls", but it is still often less efficient that Version 25

I almost suggested version 25 (there are no real presets, all the controls work with each other) but I thought there would be two drawbacks:

• Novice users could easily knock the sliders without any understanding of how to "reset" them, so lose any "easy" way to make a fade to/from silence
• Power users would lose the feature of being able to retain "custom" slider settings while still being able to do a preset fade to/from silence.

I think these are fairly substantial objections?

steve wrote:there is the potential confusion in 25b that "Preset = Fade In" overrides "Fade direction = Fade Out" and "Preset = Fade Out" overrides "Fade direction = Fade In.

Yes. It can be mitigated by labelling, for example "Use Preset [PR] or Controls " and for the drop-down "PR:Fade In (Linear)".

Then I got to playing around with 25b. Does it help power users if we combine the custom Fade Type and custom Fade Direction into one control as in 25c below, so that the the contents of the control for "Either choose..." and the contents of the control for the custom Fade Type are identical except for the addition of "**Customize** in "Either Choose...": The obvious disadvantage is the near identical contents of the first two controls, but conceptually I think this one is very easy to understand and looks clean.

Or, how are the workflows if we combine the almost identical controls for "preset" and "custom" fade types in 25c and have a "simple" first control that chooses either "Preset" or "Customize"; then the control below for fade types applies to both presets and customised (v25d below): Perhaps this might work better with the Fade type first, then the "Preset or Customize" control could be labelled to refer to the sliders below.

steve wrote:The dB scale works well in conjunction with the Amplify and Normalize effects. For example, to fade up to exactly 0 dB, the end of the selection can be "measured" using the Amplify effect to find the current peak level, then the "High Point Gain" set to that level.

I don't see how that is a showstopper for you against linear - I am assuming if we have linear at all (or offer it commented out) it has to be in addition to the dB choice. In many ways having both gives the best of both worlds.

While the positive end of the linear scale is a problem I think it's only a minor problem if text entry is allowed. Also we could just tie the linear slider to 0% to 100% for easier understanding and have users enter values > 100% in text. Would it look less confusing (though functionally I prefer not) if the two % controls were text only?

I agree four gain sliders "looks" a little intimidating though I don't think it's hard to understand in comparison to say, Sliding Time Scale. In the below I tried putting the dB / % choice between the slider pairs but I am not sure I like it: I feel getting the workflow optimised (ideally with a real preset that disables sliders) is a little more important than including % choices, though that is only the case if we ship a plug-in like Text Envelope that includes a % choice.

I assume v24 (Fade In/Out/Up/Down) is out of contention? I don't like that one.

For any of these v25's, can one make a line of text e.g. "GAINS" above a set of controls without making it a control itself?



Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:Novice users could easily knock the sliders without any understanding of how to "reset" them, so lose any "easy" way to make a fade to/from silence

I think that is a very minor issue - certainly a lot less of an issue than accidentally knocking a control in any of the built-in effects because, unlike built-in effects, Nyquist effects always reset to their defaults at the start of a session.

Having an indicator (of some sort) for the default position of sliders is a feature request for 'all' effects (not just Nyquist effects).

Gale Andrews wrote:Power users would lose the feature of being able to retain "custom" slider settings while still being able to do a preset fade to/from silence.

I don't think that is a big issue either. It would be nice to be able to save user presets (like in the Equalization effect) but that is not an option for Nyquist plug-ins. In practice I think that it's useful to be able to retain settings from one occasion to the next occasion within the same session (for example when fading down and then back up again) which the current offerings will do.

Gale Andrews wrote:how are the workflows if we combine the almost identical controls for "preset" and "custom" fade types in 25c and have a "simple" first control that chooses either "Preset" or "Customize"; then the control below for fade types applies to both presets and customised (v25d below):

I don't see the slider controls as an optional extra, but rather as the primary purpose of this plug-in. I agree that we should try to make the effect as easy as possible for less able users, but not at the expense of what the plug-in is intended for.

In effect, a control that chooses either "Preset" or "Customize" is the same as an option to "Disable All Sliders". As disabling the sliders disables the core feature of this effect it should definitely not be the default. The Equalization effect does not have the presets as the default option, though I'm sure that some less able user would find that easier, but such an idea would not be entertained by either the developers or the vast majority of users because it would cripple the effect for what it is intended for.

I could live with an option to disable the sliders as long as the default is off, though I really don't think it is necessary.
With the version 25 GUI, this effect is by no means the most complicated effect in Audacity. I suspect that most users that are likely to struggle with it are unlikely to even find the effects that are below the divider.

Gale Andrews wrote:I don't see how that is a showstopper for you against linear - I am assuming if we have linear at all (or offer it commented out) it has to be in addition to the dB choice.

It would be a show stopper for me if % was the only option. I think consistency is important as it allows the tools in Audacity to work together, not against each other.

Gale Andrews wrote:I agree four gain sliders "looks" a little intimidating though I don't think it's hard to understand in comparison to say, Sliding Time Scale

No, not compared to "Sliding Time Scale", but you also seem to be arguing that having any sliders is too complicated for some users as the reason for having default presets. I think that we need to accept that anything more that the standard linear Fade In and Fade Out will be too complicated for some users.

Gale Andrews wrote:though that is only the case if we ship a plug-in like Text Envelope that includes a % choice.

A linear scale is an option in the current "Text Envelope" effect and I'm strongly in favour of keeping that option.

I would not against having a linear scale in this effect if it could be done in a clear way without duplicating controls that can't be greyed out. If Nyquist plug-ins supported greying out controls then I'd say yes, let's have both. If Nyquist plug-ins supported tabbed interfaces so that we could have a simple and an advanced interface, then I'd say let's have linear on the simple and dB on the advanced (provided that the simple or advanced selection persisted from one session to the next). Unfortunately the Nyquist plug-in interface does not allow these options, which leaves the choice between duplicating controls or deciding on dB OR linear. With a choice of one or the other I think we have to go for dB.

There is one other option that occurs to me, though I'm not sure how much either of us will like it

Rather than having a choice drop-down selection for dB or linear plus sliders (or text boxes), we cold have one text box below the sliders.
If the text box is empty (or invalid), then the dB sliders control the high point and low point.
If the text box contains exactly two numbers, then they are the high point and low point on a linear scale.
Perhaps called something like:
(Optional) Gain as %: [___________]

Gale Andrews wrote: I assume v24 (Fade In/Out/Up/Down) is out of contention? I don't like that one.
For any of these v25's, can one make a line of text e.g. "GAINS" above a set of controls without making it a control itself?

Version 25 is currently my favourite. I much prefer it to version 24.
The only place that text can go is as ;control text (before and/or after the control) and the ;info text (at the top of the interface).

Hi

I'm interested in this effect but think the presets have importance. Too few Audicity effects have presets - of course this is why a person shall look for vst effects instead.

Often you shall find programs where the developers like yourself think only of how they like to use the effect in advanced state and not how those with less understanding shall use it. So I think with fades tools like this, most people shall use it just for different shapes to and from what they understand silence is (like fade in and fade out with no prompt) .

And of course fade to and from other levels is important new feature , but maybe you make it more diffcicult if you dont offer a percent choice or don't offer a preset to half or from half.

Also I have seen pro fade out and it is very accomplished.

IS there an index of optional nyquist effects for download?

Thanks for the feedback yulac, it's really useful to hear from other users.

The problem with presets in Nyquist plug-ins (as opposed to built-in effects or other types of plug-in) is that the Nyquist interface does not support presets very well. It's fine if there are 'only' presets, but the problems arise when you want both presets and manual controls. Where, for example, you can select a preset in the Equalization effect and the settings will all jump to the appropriate places, Nyquist plug-ins can't do that - it is a very primitive interface.

I'm not really "a developer" - I don't have a clue about C++. I'm a musician that also writes Nyquist plug-ins. There is a wide range of Audacity users, from very young to very old, from people that dabble occasionally for transferring a cassette to CD, to people that regularly mix projects with dozens of tracks. Finding the right balance between functionality and ease of use can be difficult. In the case of this plug-in, users have requested a fade effect that can fade from one level to another level, and that is a central feature of what this plug-in provides. I want to make it as easy as possible to do that, which as you can tell from the length of this topic is not an easy matter. Sometimes the "obvious" solutions don't work in practice - for example the Envelope tool allows increasing the level by 100%, but users often complain that it is not enough (and as an Audacity user I've experienced that myself). Percentage increase or decrease seems like a simple idea, but it falls down badly if you need to raise the level by more than a few dB (+6 dB = 200% linear).

yulac wrote: or don't offer a preset to half or from half.

I did consider a preset to half and from half, but for which type of fade? Some people will want that with a linear fade, others will want it for log fades, others for 'S' shaped fades, and of course there are In and Out versions of each - then there are those that want to fade to or from a quarter. Some programs have so many presets that you can't find the one that you want, so again it needs to be a balance.

On of the things that I like about the "version 25f" is that for fading to or from half (50%), all that you need to do is to type 100 50 into that box, and it works for Fade In and Fade Out and all of the fade shapes. Similarly to fade to or from a quarter, just type 25 100 (or "100 25"). I think this could be a close as we can get to the best of all worlds.

yulac wrote:Also I have seen pro fade out and it is very accomplished.

Thank you - and it is extremely easy to use

yulac wrote:IS there an index of optional nyquist effects for download?

There are a lot of Nyquist plug-ins on the Audacity wiki - the index for those is here: http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Downl ... t_Plug-ins
All of the plug-ins there should work, but please let us know if you find any that don't.

There are also a lot of plug-ins in various stages of development here on the forum (this section http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewforum.php?f=42). These are not indexed and not fully tested. Feedback about these plug-ins should be posted in the relevant topic. One of the main things holding up transferring these to the indexed list on the wiki is the lack of testing and user feedback, so if you do try these, please do post your experience with them (good or bad).

Gale Andrews wrote:

• Novice users could easily knock the sliders without any understanding of how to "reset" them, so lose any "easy" way to make a fade to/from silence
• Power users would lose the feature of being able to retain "custom" slider settings while still being able to do a preset fade to/from silence.

....
While the positive end of the linear scale is a problem I think it's only a minor problem if text entry is allowed.
.....
I agree four gain sliders "looks" a little intimidating....
....
I feel getting the workflow optimised .. [snip] .. is a little more important than including % choices...

I'm really starting to like version 25f

• It provides a very quick and easy way to make a fade to/from silence - just enter 100 0
• A fade from/to silence can be performed without losing the gain fader positions.
• Because it is text entry, the gain can be set to very high levels if required.
• It looks less intimidating than having lots of controls.
• In many cases it can improve workflow.

AND

• It provides the benefits of setting the gains on a linear (percent) scale.

The one downside that I can see is that it may not be immediately obvious to all users that they need to enter two values if they use the text box, but this can be greatly mitigated by providing a verbose error message if an invalid entry is made. Anything entered other than exactly two positive numbers would trigger the message, which could even be like a help screen that explains exactly how to use the text entry box. There would be little need for a user to get it wrong more than once.

If we use this text box there is the question of the scale being: Unity gain = 1.0 or 100%
I have a slight preference for % because:
1) There is less chance of confusion between "gain" and "target level".
2) The old problem with continental comma as decimal separator is less likely to occur.

I've been steering clear of this for a day or two as I have spent a long time on it (as you have). I was also interested to see if yulac came back with any response.

I see a greater degree of issue than you do with not having a preset (that disables the other controls). From the power user point of view, a preset control that was just "bolted on top" of the 25f model (in the manner of 25c) doesn't present much issue does it? There is the extra control to be changed to "Customize" once at the start of each session, if that control initialises to a preset. And there is some gain even to power users in that they can get back to a known, common fade using a preset without changing their custom settings. I can see that a separate linear control does that too, but on a different scale and in a rather less intuitive way than a "real" preset, and you can't then use the percent box as a second custom non-zero setting.

I think the worst feature of 25c is the similarity of the first two controls (without raising the Fade In/Out/Up/Down distinctions again or otherwise increasing verbosity).

Obviously I prefer to have one (or two) percent controls to none, though perversely the single box might actually raise requests for multiple pairs of points (not a problem with sliders).



Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:perversely the single box might actually raise requests for multiple pairs of points

"Text Envelope..." ?

Gale Andrews wrote:I see a greater degree of issue than you do with not having a preset (that disables the other controls). From the power user point of view, a preset control that was just "bolted on top" of the 25f model (in the manner of 25c) doesn't present much issue does it?

Would a "Disable All Sliders" option suffice? I would much prefer that to duplicating all of the options.

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:I see a greater degree of issue than you do with not having a preset (that disables the other controls). From the power user point of view, a preset control that was just "bolted on top" of the 25f model (in the manner of 25c) doesn't present much issue does it?

Would a "Disable All Sliders" option suffice? I would much prefer that to duplicating all of the options.

You mean the v25d idea, however worded ?



Gale