Audacity Forum

steve wrote:[...]There is also quite complex logic involved in working out what is valid data and what is not. The code needs to be able to "handle" error cases as well as valid data - the plug-in should not just fail with no error message and should not fail with a cryptic error message that only appears in the debug window. For example, what should the code do if someone enters % and dB? We would not just want the generic "Nyquist did not return audio".

Accept the first valid text data as the required units, then discard any other valid text (message in debug window) to say what happened)? Or refuse with an explicit error message? I guess the latter is preferable.

steve wrote:On top of that, how do we make it clear in the UI what the user needs to enter?

It sounds as if that would be the easiest of the problems. Can the "%" or "dB" be anywhere in the box? Must it have a space either side? If the user was told for example that if they want dB they must type at the start the text "db" (case insensitive, no quotes) followed by a space, else they get % (so they have a default) I think that would be very understandable.

If the rule was that they have to write db (case insensitive) followed by a space at the start (for dB), or % followed by a space (for %) that is not so friendly, but would be quite acceptable.

I certainly don't want to give you sleepless nights coding such a thing, but if it substantially improves the interface to have this feature, it may still be worth thinking about.


Gale

I vote for a new topic for pro fadde in --- is too hard maybe to post here in this topic about that, but maybe I can give you some findings soon.

Hmm steve, mayve you need envelopoe tools after all ifyou cannot be satisfied with 6 or 8 preesets ... or mayve what was it you thiunk of... testual enveloope??=

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:Can you give a couple of examples of those you cannot create?

"Professional" sounding fade-ins.

What that is missing in the v26 examples would most contribute to that?

There are 6 fade-in shapes available in v26. Testing these fades on a variety of music, in most cases none of the available fades gives me a result as good as I would like. The problem in my opinion is that preset fade shapes (only) are not flexible enough to meet real-world situations.

So we are again back to Mid Fade Boost? Do you want a v26d with:

• fade type (choice of 14) (does not disable the other controls)
• boost slider (and text box)
• high and low linear gain sliders (0 to 1) (and text boxes)
• units values text box for dB or % or original (units controlled by text input)

I really don't like the confusion risk posed by linear gain as you know, especially as here it would effectively be the default units.

Of course at the risk of further complicating the units values text box, I suppose you could do away with the gain sliders and specify "l" or something for linear.

Or 26e:

• fade type (choice of 14) (does not disable the other controls)
• Units choice (dB, % of original, linear)
• boost slider (and text box)
• Units values text box (units controlled by "Units" control)

Wordings are purely illustrative. For clarity, 26e has much to commend it, and if 26d needs linear gain sliders I might prefer 26e.

However, 26e could actually be more irritating for those who want non-default units (because in 26d you could choose the non-default units and values in one control). I'm guessing most people would have a favoured default unit they'd use most of the time (and I'm still assuming "% of original"- however non-standard - will actually be the preferred choice for many people).

And if the sliders in 26d were % (at the price that we made people who wanted > 100% or > 200% use the text box to left of the slider) then 26d would be my choice (assuming away the issue of coding the text box).

Asking Steve another question... if you had to choose, is the Mid Fade Boost Slider or the linear gain sliders more important to you?

As for cars only going at selected speeds, I think that's the problem with v27 - the "from" and "to" % presets will never be sufficient, so if we were to have one set of presets that disabled all the other controls, I think the presets must be the fade type. But I think v26d or v26e are better than v27 if we want Mid Fade Boost back.


Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:So we are again back to Mid Fade Cut / Boost?

I think that we only really need "Mid Fade Boost" (or whatever it is called) for "simple" curves. That is, curves similar to this set:



That is, for a fade-in:
A "simple" curve with the "Mid Fade Cut / Boost" at zero produces a linear fade.
When "Mid Fade Cut / Boost" is decreased (cut) the fade in will begin rising slowly at first, then gradually more rapidly (like the first few shapes in the above set)
When "Mid Fade Cut / Boost" is increased (boost) the fade in will begin rising more rapidly, then gradually more slowly (like the lower shapes in the above set)
(and similarly for fade out)

Gale Andrews wrote:is the Mid Fade Boost Slider or the linear gain sliders more important to you?

The Mid-Fade slider.
Whether the gain is in linear units, dB, %, log base 2, or anything else, the functionality is the same and I could get used to it no matter how obvious / convenient / peculiar / inconvenient (though "obvious and convenient" is to be preferred).
Without having some way to adjust the shape of the curve (at least a "bend a linear fade this way or that way") then I think we lose important functionality.

yulac:
Could you write your messages in the default black text please. Shades of green/blue against the pale blue background are difficult to read on some monitors.

yulac wrote:I vote for a new topic for pro fadde in

Posts relating to a "Pro Fade In" effect have been copied to here: http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic ... 20&t=68845

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:So we are again back to Mid Fade Cut / Boost?

I think that we only really need "Mid Fade Boost" (or whatever it is called) for "simple" curves.

OK but this is not an interface complication is it - the boost will always be available?

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:is the Mid Fade Boost Slider or the linear gain sliders more important to you?

The Mid-Fade slider.

OK then it's back as far as my vote goes - I am not sure why you removed it from v26 when you had more or less made a convincing case for it. The help in the Manual could perhaps use some of those images you posted to explain it, together with an arrow for where the mid fade point is. Would it be more understandable as the "half-length fade point" or similar? I take it "mid fade" is standard terminology?

So what are your views on 26d, 26e or do you have a 26f to propose?

I'm increasingly drawn to 26d (with or without a pair of gain sliders for one of the units) on the grounds it's one less control to deal with for the non-default units. Using "%" for the the slider pair might to some extent make up for not having "% to and from" presets.

But a lot depends on your views of letting the text box input determine the type of units, and whether % or dB might yet be sufficient as the units choices (in which case, if we have a pair of sliders, the text input box just takes the "other" format).



Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:I am not sure why you removed it from v26

In an attempt to simplify the effect for novice users, but it is not acceptable. Too much functionality is lost.

Gale Andrews wrote:The help in the Manual could perhaps use some of those images you posted to explain it, together with an arrow for where the mid fade point is.

Yes I think some images would be a big help in making it clear.

Gale Andrews wrote:I take it "mid fade" is standard terminology?

No, I made it up.

The only "standard" terminology that I'm aware of is "Curve" (on DJ crossfaders) where a higher setting means that a fade-in rises more rapidly at the beginning of the fade and a fade-out drops more rapidly at the end of the fade.

Outside of DJ mixer crossfaders I don't recall seeing any description in words - the manuals generally just show pictures of the fade and avoid any description in words. (The Adobe Audition manual just says "drag up or down").

Gale Andrews wrote:but this is not an interface complication is it

Well it's one slider more than not having it, but having tried the effect without that slider I think it is one control that we can't do without.

Gale Andrews wrote:the boost will always be available?

Unless the "presets" include one option called something like: "Simple Curve (adjustable)"
and the "Mid-fade Cut / Boost" is called something like: "Adjust 'Simple' Curve".
I don't think that "Simple Curve" is a particularly brilliant description, but the idea is to distinguish it as a curve in one direction or the other as opposed to an S-shaped curve that curves "up" in the higher level half of the fade then "down" in the lower level half.

It may help to mitigate novice users "losing" the default shape settings if the other preset fade shapes are factory set, non-adjustable shapes.

So then "high/low point gain (dB)" OR "low and high as % of original" would be available for all "Fade Types"
and "Adjust Simple Curve" would "bend" the "Simple Curve (adjustable)".

Gale Andrews wrote:So what are your views on 26d, 26e or do you have a 26f to propose?

Sorry I can't find 26d or 26e.
I can see 26a,b and c here: http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic ... 38#p195038

Of these I'm drawn to 26c but with a "curve bender" control slider as in 25f.

im no surprise you cannot find anything in long topic.

stev e you bit hard man i think , i see a button for font colour you shold disable it if not allowe... black is boring what colors aree allowed???

steve wrote:

Gale Andrews wrote:So what are your views on 26d, 26e or do you have a 26f to propose?

Sorry I can't find 26d or 26e.

I did not bother to mock up an interface for them, but they are a few posts above .


Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:I did not bother to mock up an interface for them, but they are a few posts above .

Got it, thanks.

So we want sliders for the high and low points of the fade I think?
If we remove the controversial "linear gain" option, then the sliders can be "% of the original" or "gain dB".
I'd prefer not to have both types of sliders.

If we use "% of the original" for the sliders then obvious choices for the range would be either 0 to 100% or 0 to 200%. I think that going beyond 200% would make selecting small values too fiddly. For a range of 0 to 100%, one click to the side of the slider produces a change of 10%. For a range of 0 to 200% one click gives a change of 20%. Ctrl+left/right cursor does the same.

If we use "gain dB" for the sliders then a suitable range might be -96 to +24 dB. This gives a "one click" change of 12 dB. We would need to "fudge" silence as the dB scale cannot go down to -inf, so the minimum setting could assume that the users means silence (zero gain). Unfortunately 12 dB is quite a big step as I'd imagine that users may frequently want to set the minimum level somewhere between 0 and -12 dB, but the low end needs to be close to silence, particularly for exponential fades where the minimum level makes a huge difference to the shape of the fade.

The main (practical) downside of % sliders is that even with a range up to 200%, that is still only +6 dB, which is not much when amplifying low level audio. However, I am still inclined to go with a linear (%) scale for the sliders as long as there is an alternative convenient method for entering larger gain values. Text input would provide that option. In which case I would vote for sliders with a range of 0 to 100% as this is likely to be most convenient in most cases.

If we agree on "% of the original" as the units for the sliders, then I see no compelling reason to make the text input different. So what I'm now suggesting is that we use % as the units for both sliders and (optional) text entry. If we must have gain expressed as a % of the original level, then I'd prefer that we used it consistently within the interface. If there is substantial demand for other units after release of the plug-in, then we can either provide a "Select Units:" control or allow units to be defined within the text input (for example " 0 -12 dB ")

I don't think that this will lose anything functionally, and not needing to select the units will simplify both the interface and the manual.

yulac wrote:what colors aree allowed???

Any colour you like, but if your posts are hard to read, people may not bother reading them.