Adjustable Fade

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steve
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Re: Adjustable Fade

Post by steve » Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:40 am

yulac wrote:So maybe the test is ; this must be better for all musics than either fade or cross fade or it is not pro
Fair comment.
yulac wrote:You mean , instead of Fade In becoz cross fade is remooved?
No, not because Fade In is removed, Fade In will not be removed. The choice should be based on "because it sounds better than using the "Fade In" effect".
yulac wrote:Is rap an rock allowd musics ,
Yes. Any music.
yulac wrote: i like quick hard fade
There is quite a broad selection in that ZIP bundle. You may find like I do that your preference depends on what the music is, or you may find that you have a strong preference for just one of the fades for all types of music.
yulac wrote:do I answer only for easy llstenings?
If there is one type of fade that you like for easy listening, a different one for rock and a third one for rap, then that's fine. I'd be interested to know which you like for all types of music that you listen to. Try to give each version a fair trial - sometimes you may find that a particular one "works" (sounds great) when you didn't expect it to.
Gale Andrews wrote: You said a while ago that maybe 99% of people want linear fade in or out.
I also said that for linear fade in and fade out the standard built in effects are better because they are a lot faster. If they want a linear fade to/from a custom level, then they will probably need the adjustable effect.
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Robert J. H.
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Re: Adjustable Fade

Post by Robert J. H. » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:53 am

My views on general Fade-in effects:

We have two possible sources of music:
  1. professional mixed down
  2. self recorded/created music
professionally mastered music has its own Fade-ins already applied. In general, those ar very short, just long enough to avoid an introductory click.
Why is that so? It's simple, because a musical piece wants to hook on a signature lick from the very beginning. You can't fade in Beethoven's "tatata-tah" neither you can do it with with "Can't get no satisfaction".
It is the saying that your solo is only good when you hit the right last note, no matter how Van Halen-like you played before. This applies also to the beginning of a song. It is important to establish the groove as soon as possible.
Therefore, if you want to kind of fade in music, the rhythm section (especially the bass) should be left out. It's far more musical to introduce more melodic and harmonic content over time than just fade up the whole song.
Of course, the opposite can also serve as an interesting effect. You introduce the song with some pads that play the melody for a few measures (or just some Sfx like wind, helicopter birds etc.) and then the full rhythm section joins in. In this case, your possibilities to apply a fade-in on commercial made music are very limited, either you leve the whole thing as it is or you make a very short fade-in towards a significant section of the song.
For your own music, there's a lot more freedom. It is in fact the creative usage of the fade-in that makes the difference in the end.
It is no surprise that the music of the beatles late sixties albums had had such a huge influence on the whole pop music. They played a lot with their tapes and introduced for example reversed sounds.
If you start a song with an reversed cymbal sound, you'll have an creative fade-in effect. Although it is somewhat overdone today, particulary in synthisised music.
What can we learn so far?
  • Long fade-ins are almost exclusevely used on pad sounds and sfx, where you can apply the same types as with the fade-outs. However, the attacks shouldn't be too slow (no linear fade-in in general).
  • Rhythmic music tends to have a very short Fade-in (linearly, over some ms).
  • Songs go towards a climax by adding more melodic content over time.
  • Fade-ins work rather with the harmonic content than with the volume knob (like opening a wah-wah for example)
  • Strong bas or snare sounds shouldn't be affected by the fade-in.
  • The fade-in should respect the rhythmic structure of the song. It's better to fade-in over a copy of the first measure(s) than to attenuate the introducing riff, if you don't want to end up with a rushing intro (11 and a half bar blues...)
  • Special effects are widely used for Fade-ins: reversed sounds, filter sweeps (see the second part in Madonnas American Pie)
  • Often, the different instruments are faded in differently. The rhythm section starts full and the melody section gets in gradually (or reversely).
  • Fade ins can also be applied to the stereo image: from left/right, from far away or narrow towards wide.
  • There doesn't exist such a thing like the "general" fade-in effect, not even for songs within the same genre or style (except the very short linear one).
A one-click Fade effect has to be much more complex (or simpler...) than its fade-out counter part. the simpler possibility is that the effect always applies a short fade-in, no matter how long the selection is, but this should be expressed by the effect's name.
The more complex possibility could be that the effect analyses the selection it is applied to. Selections under about 0.1 s are linear. On longer selections, it depends how diverse the source material is. Pad and string sounds (i.e. legato music), where the rms (or peak) curve is smooth, can be faded up gradually. Rhythmic intros, of which the rms curve varies a lot, should fade up much faster.

I am afraid that even this long reply won't help you much on your search but it hopefully gave you some new points of view.
Last edited by Robert J. H. on Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: typo

Gale Andrews
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Re: Adjustable Fade

Post by Gale Andrews » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:20 pm

steve wrote:
Gale Andrews wrote: You said a while ago that maybe 99% of people want linear fade in or out.
I also said that for linear fade in and fade out the standard built in effects are better because they are a lot faster. If they want a linear fade to/from a custom level, then they will probably need the adjustable effect.
I assume you mean the built-in fade effects are faster because they have no GUI.

This raises again the question of what the default preset should be if we have a real preset and the preset is not "no preset". You could argue the preset should not be a linear choice (which is already built-in), but the most useful non-linear fade in.

Having the default preset as "no preset" is less of an issue in v27 if there is no control for the type of "gain". The default preset is not really an issue in the v26 models as there are no real presets.

I listed problems I have with v27 and suggested there was not much it could do compared to the v26 versions that justified the extra complexity. Is that correct?

Is there any mileage in entering "%" in the text box to switch format to "% of original gain" (or for that matter, entering dB to switch to dB)?

Do you have an alternative v27 that addresses some of the concerns about it?


Gale
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Re: Adjustable Fade

Post by Gale Andrews » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:33 pm

Robert J. H. wrote:The more complex possibility could be that the effect analyses the selection it is applied to. Selections under about 0.1 s are linear. On longer selections, it depends how diverse the source material is. Pad and string sounds (i.e. legato music), where the rms (or peak) curve is smooth, can be faded up gradually. Rhythmic intros, of which the rms curve varies a lot, should fade up much faster.
Thanks, Robert.

As I understand it, Pro Fade Out does fade according to the frequency content.

As the built-in fade ins are "simple" algorithms, perhaps indeed the Pro Fade In should be more "complex". Can Nyquist effects determine the selection length as a criterion for what they do?


Gale
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yulac
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Re: Adjustable Fade

Post by yulac » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:46 pm

steve wrote: If there is one type of fade that you like for easy listening, a different one for rock and a third one for rap, then that's fine. I'd be interested to know which you like for all types of music that you listen to. Try to give each version a fair trial - sometimes you may find that a particular one "works" (sounds great) when you didn't expect it to.
Aargh but maybne this is serveral hours of long work.
Do you have an insentive scheme where you pay or offer a prize to participate in the listening pannels? Mayve Or tit he software testings... mayve even for free company it is not bad idea to put som e monies aside for it... :idea: I hate this idea icon, anyway.... :D :D

Robert J. H.
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Re: Adjustable Fade

Post by Robert J. H. » Thu Nov 01, 2012 11:25 pm

Gale Andrews wrote:
Robert J. H. wrote:The more complex possibility could be that the effect analyses the selection it is applied to. Selections under about 0.1 s are linear. On longer selections, it depends how diverse the source material is. Pad and string sounds (i.e. legato music), where the rms (or peak) curve is smooth, can be faded up gradually. Rhythmic intros, of which the rms curve varies a lot, should fade up much faster.
Thanks, Robert.

As I understand it, Pro Fade Out does fade according to the frequency content.

As the built-in fade ins are "simple" algorithms, perhaps indeed the Pro Fade In should be more "complex". Can Nyquist effects determine the selection length as a criterion for what they do?


Gale
Pro fade out uses a (mirrored) S-curve or 1/2 period cosine vor the volume and a linear ramp for the lowpass filter (from 22050 Hz down to 100 Hz).
That's indeed today's standard. Some use the same curve for the LP, but that's a matter of taste and scarcely perceptable.
Now for the fade-in:
It is no problem to determine the selection length, it is given by "len" (samples) or "(get-duration 1)" (in seconds). Furthermore, the whole selection can be analysed in regard to its harmonic content or its fundamental frequencies. Additionally, the average or peak curve can statistically checked for its consistency, i.e. if the content varies a lot over time.
You see, it is no question if a complex effect can be written but if the majority of users will be pleased with the result it gives. You can bet on it that some always want (or expect) the exact opposite of what they get.
However, I am of the opinion that we sometimes have to pluck our courage and do something innovative or we (plug-in developers) will always run behind the commercial sound editors and waste our time in trying to copy their pseudo standards. It comes all back to the rule "Let your ears be the judge", not if the curve looks good in the wave display. I must admit, I haven't tested Steve's collection of fade-ins yetmainly because I have no clue on which material I should try it - a momentary lack of imagination.
An interesting application of a longer Fade-in effect with analise capabilities are live recordings, self-made or from CD. The songs often start with a much to loud volume of the audience's applause. If we could create an effect that recognises this sound and fades it in pleasingly, this surely could be a appealing innovation.
Ok, it is not easy, and there is the problem that the user can't be informed via a dialog box which kind of fade-in was applied, because Nyquist does not allow returning text and sound at the same time.
We could overcome this problem by using a audio feedback. For example:
audio-feedback.wav
(141.84 KiB) Downloaded 86 times
That's about how I would go for it.

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Re: Adjustable Fade

Post by steve » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:13 am

yulac wrote:Aargh but maybne this is serveral hours of long work.
Do you have an insentive scheme where you pay or offer a prize to participate in the listening pannels?
Unfortunately no, otherwise I think Gale, myself and the rest of the crew would be in line for a huge bonus :D
We may be mad, but we do this for fun, to try and make Audacity even better, and to share freely the fruits of our labour.
There is no obligation and no kick-back, but if you want to join in, welcome ;)
(by the way, there is no budget either - Audacity is given to users free of charge)
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Re: Adjustable Fade

Post by steve » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:17 am

Robert J. H. wrote:You can bet on it that some always want (or expect) the exact opposite of what they get.
Lol. Yes I'd bet on that :D
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Re: Adjustable Fade

Post by steve » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:18 am

Robert J. H. wrote:because Nyquist does not allow returning text and sound at the same time.
Other than through the debug window, but that is not very user friendly.
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Re: Adjustable Fade

Post by steve » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:37 am

Gale Andrews wrote:Is there any mileage in entering "%" in the text box to switch format to "% of original gain" (or for that matter, entering dB to switch to dB)?
I had considered that, but I think that it makes text entry too complicated. There is little or no scope to make it clear whether the correct format should be (for example)@
dB 0.0 -30
or
0dB -30dB
or
0 dB -30 dB
or
0 to -30 dB
or
0,0 30,0 dB
or something else.

Attempting to cover all of the possibilities in software is extremely complex.
Expecting the user to use exactly the correct format is probably expecting too much.

Gale Andrews wrote:Do you have an alternative v27 that addresses some of the concerns about it?
I'm currently working on something similar to v26.

The problem that I'm having with v26 is that I'm finding that quite often I can't create the fade that I want, (and of course creating useful fades is the most important issue), so I'm trying to keep close to the v26 interface but a more useful effect. If it doesn't do the job then it doesn't matter how good the interface is. At the end of the day, being "fit for purpose" must be the overriding priority.
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