Adjustable Fade

[yulac]

Translated into our current ideas, 25f might like this (v26c):

I don't personally like the use of non-standard notation and terminology in Audacity, but if we were to go with "% of original" as a concession to novice users then what options would we have in the "Fade Type" choice list?

steve is this bit arrogent maybe
what would u call % of original if you do not like that title? maybe this is something that is already very clear

[steve]

he presets are too limited

I think I'll include some presets in the final version.
There are some types of fade that are likely to be used again and again, so it would make sense for those to be available as presets.
I may also include one or two that demonstrate the capabilities of the plug-in.

So you must distinguish all the gain choice clearly

Yes of course - that is why I would prefer to use standard terminology.
I don't think that it does new users much of a favour to invent non-standard descriptions because at some point they are likely to come across the standard terminology, at which point they will become thoroughly confused.

I think that one of the reasons that Gale was objecting to gain having a linear scale (unity gain = 1, double the original amplitude = 2, half the original amplitude = 0.5) is because of the apparent similarity with the default vertical scale on Audacity audio tracks. Audacity is the only audio editor that I know of that uses a vertical scale of +/- 1.0 on audio tracks. Every other audio editor that I've ever come across uses dB. So here we have an example of how "simplifying" something with non-standard terminology can create confusion later on.

Gain is the amount of amplification (voltage, current or power) of an audio signal. It is the ratio of the output level to the input level. It is usually expressed as a single number (for example, a gain of 3 means that the output level is 3 times as great as the input signal) or in dB.

U don;t uerstand me maybe. Surely the gain in the pannel slidders is dB

"Gain" is a very common term in audio. Please read the link for a comprehensive explanation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gain
You will also find the term defined in most glossaries of audio terms, for example Mackie define gain as:

The measure of how much a circuit amplifies a signal. Gain may be stated as a ratio of input to output voltage, current or power, such as a volt-age gain of 4, or a power gain of 1.5, or it can be expressed in decibels, such as a line amplifier with a gain of 10 dB.

There is even a brief definition in the Audacity manual: http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/Glossary#gain

Defining gain in terms of a percentage is not a standard way of describing gain. I have been unable to find any audio reference to gain as a percentage outside of this forum topic so I don't think that it is a good idea for us to adopt the term "percentage gain". "Percentage Gain" is an accountancy term, not audio.

[steve]

I have split this discussion from the original topic as the last 15 pages have been about the Adjustable fade effect, not the "Pro Fade Out" effect.
For discussion or comments regarding the Pro Fade Out effect, please see here: http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic ... 42&t=66654

[Gale Andrews]

Let's call Steve's latest mockup suggestion v27 for clarity.

I think yulac's point is that the Gain on the Track Control Panel is expressed in dB. If so, your "Gain Input Method" should not say "Gain" and "Gain(dB)" but the former should say "Gain (Linear)".

As far as I can see there are three expressions of interest in 26c and one (yours) for v27.

There are quite a few things I don't like about v27.

• The "real" presets are now limited to linear fade type (I don't know, it has
  not been specified).
• Users may think only the sliders are "controls" so expect other controls to still work; this needs clarifying in the UI.
• It is not yet specified but I assume the default "preset" is the one at the top "none selected"; if so, this is inconvenient for people who want to use the presets, moreover all users advanced or otherwise are now faced with a considerable number of choices to make before they can start (one choice being whether to use a preset or not).
• The "Mid fade Boost" has come back whereas I thought we were agreed we would cover that by offering a "normalized exponential" fade type choice.
• The "Gain Input Method" seems an un-necessary control to me. 26c is perfectly clear here; if you type in the box, the sliders are disabled. It's wacky, but Nyquist is wacky. Those who want "% of original" (other than the presets - which do not cover the feature request 20% to 80%) have now got to use "Gain Input Method" as well as the "Presets" control every time they start the effect in a new session.
• I see little value in the "linear" gain which will confuse many newcomers. I suppose it has appeared because you have decided dB sliders are ungainly. Steve understands one of my objections to linear correctly - "apparent similarity with the default vertical scale". My other objection is that non-mathematicians do not naturally think in terms of 0.1, but 10% percent. Most of Audacity's controls where we could use a factor use percent, even though there may be cases e.g. Change Speed and Change Tempo where a factor could be thought more intuitive (because the percentage range often exceeds 1% to 100%).

I am not so worried about not having sliders as yulac, so 26a:


or 26b:


could still be candidates in my opinion.

Could the text box input decide intelligently what units to take e.g. if there are any "%" characters in the box it takes percentages? If so, we could have sliders in linear (if we need linear units at all) and the text box could take dB unless it contained any "%" characters.

Providing multiple alternative ways to achieve the same result (for example, choice of linear gain, % or dB) only adds to the complexity.

I agree the addition of linear gain makes it more difficult to keep the effect simple (another reason against it). I know you have now decided that linear is the "correct" scale for gain but there are many places where Audacity is non-standard in one way or another so it is confusing to "correct" part of the interface but not other parts.

In sum, I don't think there is much of major importance you can do in v27 that can't be done in the v26 versions if you add the "normalized exponential" fade type choice. Correct me if I'm wrong there. I don't regard the % fade presets as "major" - as presented in v27 I think they are definitely not worth the added complexity.

show me the goalposts.

I haven't changed my mind yet that the goalposts are something like the v26 models. I think you moved the goalposts by adding linear units (you were against any kind of linear scale for a long time) and by adding back the mid fade control and removing sliders where I didn't feel there was any consensus to do those things.

Not that new ideas are unwelcome, but they will cause further holdup.

Translated into our current ideas, 25f might like this (v26c):

I don't personally like the use of non-standard notation and terminology in Audacity, but if we were to go with "% of original" as a concession to novice users then what options would we have in the "Fade Type" choice list?

Are the "Fade Type" choices affected by having "% of original"? I was envisaging the same 12 choices as in v26, ideally with the "normalized exponential" pair added to make 14.

Defining gain in terms of a percentage is not a standard way of describing gain

Then don't let's call it "gain", at least for the "% of original" scale option, as I already suggested. To me, users understand that a standard "fade in" is a fade from silence to 100% of the volume, or to the original volume. It's natural that they will think of partial fades as to/from percentages of the original volume.


Gale

[yulac]

I accord with Mr gale completely accept i really think the slidders make the effectg more attractive for the user

[steve]

I know that Gale is very keen on a "Pro Fade In" effect to balance the "Pro Fade Out" effect.
Anyone reading this and the other "Pro Fade" thread will know that my reservation about a "Pro Fade In" effect is because I tend to use different fade "shapes" according to the type of material, the duration of the fade, and the kind of effect that I'm wanting to achieve.

However, I've been giving this some thought and testing various types of fade-ins.

The thing that makes "Pro Fade Out" stand out is that it is a one click effect that produces a very nice musical fade out that is well suited for fading out most types of music. The big question: is there a particular fade-in effect that has similar universal appeal?

The difficulty that I have in picking one particular fade shape is that I find that I prefer one of the options in some cases, and a different one in others, Having tested dozens of audio samples with dozens of fade shapes, the best that I can come up with is a compromise that I think suits most music most of the time.

So now the questions are:
Is this compromise good enough?
Do others agree that this is the best compromise?

Obviously I can't answer those questions, so here is a selection of one-click fade effects.
Please try them on a variety of musical sources. Keep in mind that this effect is intended for fading in music rather than anything else (not for cross-fades, not for making sound effects, not for speech...)
The plug-ins are "Pro fade In 1" to "Pro Fade In 12".

Can you pick one that you would be happy to use each time you want to fade in some music?

[steve]

It is not yet specified but I assume the default "preset" is the one at the top "none selected"; if so, this is inconvenient for people who want to use the presets,

If there are, say, 14 presets (as previously suggested), then if we pick any one of the presets as the default, there is a 7.143 % chance that it is the right one for people wanting to use presets. For people that want to use an adjustable fade (not a preset), then there is a 100% chance that it is the wrong one.

[yulac]

I know that Gale is very keen on a "Pro Fade In" effect to balance the "Pro Fade Out" effect.
Anyone reading this and the other "Pro Fade" thread will know that my reservation about a "Pro Fade In" effect is because I tend to use different fade "shapes" according to the type of material, the duration of the fade, and the kind of effect that I'm wanting to achieve.

#
Yes but maybe you not the most lazy user like most - they maybe pick fade in or cross fade in and see which is best So maybe the test is ; this must be better for all musics than either fade or cross fade or it is not pro

Hiowwever, I'v]e been giving this some thought and testing various types of fade-ins.

The thing that makes "Pro Fade Out" stand out is that it is a one click effect that produces a very nice musical fade out that is well suited for fading out most types of music. The big question: is there a particular fade-in effect that has similar universal appeal?

The difficulty that I have in picking one particular fade shape is that I find that I prefer one of the options in some cases, and a different one in others, Having tested dozens of audio samples with dozens of fade shapes, the best that I can come up with is a compromise that I think suits most music most of the time.

So now the questions are:
Is this compromise good enough?
Do others agree that this is the best compromise?

Obviously I can't answer those questions, so here is a selection of one-click fade effects.
Please try them on a variety of musical sources. Keep in mind that this effect is intended for fading in music rather than anything else (not for cross-fades, not for making sound effects, not for speech...)
The plug-ins are "Pro fade In 1" to "Pro Fade In 12".

Can you pick one that you would be happy to use each time you want to fade in some music?

You mean , instead of Fade In becoz cross fade is remooved?

Is rap an rock allowd musics , maybe not i like quick hard fade there but some easy nlistenings is ok fgor me too, do I answer only for easy llstenings?

[Gale Andrews]

The plug-ins are "Pro fade In 1" to "Pro Fade In 12".

Can you pick one that you would be happy to use each time you want to fade in some music?

Polls are often not too successful, but I wonder if it would be worth having one for this, and maybe even asking on the -users list?


Gale

[Gale Andrews]

It is not yet specified but I assume the default "preset" is the one at the top "none selected"; if so, this is inconvenient for people who want to use the presets,

If there are, say, 14 presets (as previously suggested), then if we pick any one of the presets as the default, there is a 7.143 % chance that it is the right one for people wanting to use presets. For people that want to use an adjustable fade (not a preset), then there is a 100% chance that it is the wrong one.

You said a while ago that maybe 99% of people want linear fade in or out. Maybe it is lower than that, but if so we have a 50% chance we pick the correct one for them and a 45% chance we pick the correct one for everyone.


Gale