Punch Copy/Paste

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steve
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Re: Punch Copy/Paste

Post by steve » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:41 pm

The version in the previous post fixes only the "Eq power: crossfade = 0" bug.

I think there may still be a case for the mix to use "equal power" proportions when "Eq Power crossfade" is selected.
Example:
1) Make 2 tracks.
2) Generate white noise into track 1
3) Generate white noise into track 2 (separately so the noise is not the same as track 1).
4) Use Eq power crossfade and Mix = 50%
Between the fade regions, the rms level drops below the original level and is noticeably quieter. This is because it is a "linear" mix of the two tracks.
If "equal power" proportions were used, the peak level would be higher but the rms level (and hence the loudness) would remain constant.

What do you think?
Would you like me to post a version that does this so that you can try it practically?
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Gale Andrews
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Re: Punch Copy/Paste

Post by Gale Andrews » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:17 pm

Steve,

Your bug fix for EqPower crossfade=off is fine with me.

I would guess "paste inside and at the end of the selection" is a bit obscure, unless you can think of a good use when looping.

I thought about names with "Paste Special" combinations but I don't think there are enough different features to call it "Special" (that may be a good thing). Also "Special" may give the impression it pastes at the cursor as well.

I quite like "Selection Paste" but it says nothing about what it really does that normal paste doesn't.
  • "Equal Selection Copy/Paste" and "Equal Selection Paste"?
  • "Sync Copy/Paste" and "Sync Paste"? (But I think that is probably too close to Sync-Locked Track Groups).
  • I don't think the "Punch" word is bad but I think people may mistake it for what they hope it is.
  • I think putting "Loop" in the name may obscure the use case that initiated it.
steve wrote:
Gale Andrews wrote:How about
"Repeat paste to fill selection?:" ("Yes", "No, paste once").

Or if you want a noun:

"Pasting option for long selections:" ("Repeat to fill", "Once only").
Wouldn't those options imply that the selection will not be filled (i.e. the selection will shrink, putting the rest of the audio out of synch) if "Once Only" is selected and the clipboard is shorter?
I don't think the second one does so, but I was thinking with those that the plug-in would be called "Fill Copy/Paste".
steve wrote:How about
"Selection fill method" choice "Loop paste, Paste into" ?
I like "Selection fill method" but I think it has the same possible problem as mine (not clear what happens of the clipboard is shorter) unless the effect name makes it clear. The fill is "if required" which I was trying to get at with my second choice above.

But I still don't like "loop paste" for the reasons I gave. I think choice "Repeat, Paste once" is very much clearer.
steve wrote:
Gale Andrews wrote:Although copy (safe) seemed an excellent idea, I'm still overwriting my clipboard because I copy replace, open "Punch Copy/Paste" again to readjust settings for my paste
And that is a user choice.
But an involuntary one. :cry:
steve wrote:I could remove the "Copy (replace)" option (or whatever we call it) and force users to use the "safe" option, but I feel that is rather unfair on those users that need to do a lot of:
"copy -> paste, copy -> paste, copy -> paste,...."
because their work-flow then becomes:
"copy -> paste, clear -> copy -> paste, clear -> copy -> paste,...."
I think we should consider the clipboard backup or multiple clipboards ideas, but perhaps keep removal of "Copy (replace)" as a fallback idea.

It would be an extra control, but would a control for "Copy method:" choice "Copy (safe), Copy (replace)" be an idea? It's only the one extra first step for the power user to make to set it to "Copy (replace)" on their first use in a session, but the faint hearted could simply leave that control on the default "Copy (safe)".

I'm not sure if we need five multiple clipboards as well as the backup. There will be no way the user can preview the clipboard without loading and pasting it, will there? In the absence of that it could get hard to recall what clipboard had what content.

The wording will need to be clear e.g. "Split RAM across n clipboards" where n is the number, so they are clear more clipboards means smaller clipboards.

I still can't see the point of a valid point on the Mix scale being an error.
steve wrote: 1) Make 2 tracks.
2) Generate white noise into track 1
3) Generate white noise into track 2 (separately so the noise is not the same as track 1).
4) Use Eq power crossfade and Mix = 50%
Between the fade regions, the rms level drops below the original level and is noticeably quieter. This is because it is a "linear" mix of the two tracks.
If "equal power" proportions were used, the peak level would be higher but the rms level (and hence the loudness) would remain constant.

What do you think?
Would you like me to post a version that does this so that you can try it practically?
When we say (to quote yourself)
"Equal Power" means "the power level when cross-fading non-correlated audio remains at unity gain"
I thought the usual interpretation of "power level" was rms level? I would agree it seems more expected to maintain the rms level. Is there a very greatly increased danger of clipping if 0 dB audio is pasted into 0 dB audio than with the linear EqPower crossfade we have now?



Gale
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steve
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Re: Punch Copy/Paste

Post by steve » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:03 pm

Gale Andrews wrote:I thought the usual interpretation of "power level" was rms level? I would agree it seems more expected to maintain the rms level. Is there a very greatly increased danger of clipping if 0 dB audio is pasted into 0 dB audio than with the linear EqPower crossfade we have now?
The maximum increase in peak level when using an Eq power mix or crossfade is 3 dB.

As it is now (equal power crossfade to linear proportion mix) the peak level is likely to rise to some extent during the crossfade, with a maximum possible increase of 3 dB half way through the fade. Between the two crossfades (the "mix" section, there is no increase to the maximum peak level (easy to see if you test with pasting white noise into dissimilar white noise).

If the mix was with "eq power proportion", then the peak level could be increased by up to 3 dB in the mix section. Since the peak level is already likely to increase if Eq power crossfade is used I don't think that the "risk" level of eq power mixing is a problem. Simply, to ensure that there is no increase in peak level, linear or S-Curve crossfades must be used. I've tried Eq power mixing and I think it does behave in a more intuitive manner (though the calculations in my current version are slightly off, so I need to fix that).
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AlanHK
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Re: Punch Copy/Paste

Post by AlanHK » Fri Sep 27, 2013 12:33 pm

This saves a lot of time when compared with having to make a section silent and then mix and render tracks otherwise.

As the interface: It seems counter-intuitive that you have to use the "punch copy" to set the "paste" mode.
Also a bit annoying that it doesn't retain options between sessions.

How can I change the default from "looping" to "one shot"?
I don't know Nyquist but I have done a little coding, so I can follow simple instructions on modifying code.

Does it use the Windows clipboard?
If so, then I'd prefer if I could just CTRL-C copy and then Punch-paste.
Have "Punch-options" to change options and retain them.

steve
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Re: Punch Copy/Paste

Post by steve » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:53 pm

AlanHK wrote:This saves a lot of time when compared with having to make a section silent and then mix and render tracks otherwise.
Thanks for the feedback - that was the intention.

Sadly the interface options for Nyquist plug-ins are rather limited, so several of the design decisions were determined by what options are possible.
The reason that the options were all set in the "copy" mode is so that "paste" can be used multiple times with a single shortcut (see the original user case that gave rise to this plug-in: http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic ... 74#p207874).
One of the limitations of Nyquist plug-ins is that settings cannot be saved beyond the current session.
AlanHK wrote:How can I change the default from "looping" to "one shot"?
Open the PunchCopy.ny file in a plain text editor (for example, NotePad or NotePad++) and on line 18 you will see:

Code: Select all

;control loop "Paste: Loop mode" choice "Enable looping,Paste once only" 0
Change the '0' to a '1' so that it says:

Code: Select all

;control loop "Paste: Loop mode" choice "Enable looping,Paste once only" 1
Then save the file.
If you use NotePad, ensure that Windows does not change the file extension - the file name must end in ".ny"
AlanHK wrote:Does it use the Windows clipboard?
No. Nyquist does not have access to the Windows clipboard. It uses a special "global variable" called *scratch* that retains its "value" (the copied sound) for the duration of the session, or until deleted or replaced.

If you can describe your "user case" in detail, then there may be other modifications possible to make this plug-in more useful.
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Surfman968
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Re: Punch Copy/Paste

Post by Surfman968 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:03 pm

Does this work in 2.3.0? (I'm using Windows 10.) I dropped the ny files into the plug-in folder in the Audacity program and it does not show up in the effects menu. I've rebooted both the program and the computer. The punch files are in the plug-in folder (double checked).

steve
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Re: Punch Copy/Paste

Post by steve » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:22 pm

Surfman968 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:03 pm
Does this work in 2.3.0?
Yes it does.
Surfman968 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:03 pm
I dropped the ny files into the plug-in folder in the Audacity program and it does not show up in the effects menu.
In recent versions of Audacity, plug-ins have to be enabled in the Plug-in Manager. See: https://manual.audacityteam.org/man/man ... yzers.html
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Surfman968
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Re: Punch Copy/Paste

Post by Surfman968 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:47 pm

Face palm! That was it. SMH... And thanks.

wattpusher
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Re: Punch Copy/Paste

Post by wattpusher » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:59 am

Under 2.3.1 the versions of the two plugins posted in the 2013 message don't work right; when you try to punch paste, the cursor location at the time you call up the plugin is lost and all you can do is punch paste to the very beginning of the intended track.

steve
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Re: Punch Copy/Paste

Post by steve » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:38 am

wattpusher wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:59 am
Under 2.3.1 the versions of the two plugins posted in the 2013 message don't work right; when you try to punch paste, the cursor location at the time you call up the plugin is lost and all you can do is punch paste to the very beginning of the intended track.
Works for me.
Are you selecting a region to paste into? The plug-in won't paste at a point, you need to select a region in an audio track.
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