locked Play Region/cursor

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steve
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Re: locked Play Region/cursor

Post by steve » Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:03 pm

Mock-up of the Control Toolbar with play speed control enabled:
Control Toolbar with speed.png
Control Toolbar with speed.png (3.92 KiB) Viewed 419 times
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waxcylinder
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Re: locked Play Region/cursor

Post by waxcylinder » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:36 am

Steve, I have some serious reservations about this mockup of a Transport Toolbar with a speed control:

1) It will be far too easy for users to accidentally nudge the slider (we already know that folk do this with the pan and gain sliders in the TCP). Fair enough that you do have the visual cue of the numerical speed, but the user may fail to notice that.

2) I assume that the speed control only applies to playback - but because it resided in the Transport Toolbar some users may infer that it applies to recording too.

But having said all that I would love to see an end to the Transcription Toolbar

Peter.
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waxcylinder
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Re: locked Play Region/cursor

Post by waxcylinder » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:39 am

steve wrote:How about "Transport Lock"?
I think that it should apply to recording as well as playback.
Nice idea - but I don't think it's quite right. I kind of conveys a total lock of the transport system - i.e. no playback and no recording.
Gale Andrews wrote:Perhaps if we made them one command, it could be called "Lock Play Start/Region" and not mention region first, if that is thought clearer. We shouldn't use more than one extra word if we combine the commands.
I could live with this - a tad clumsy but "it does what is says on the tin".

Maybe if we wanted it to apply to recording as well it could just be "Lock Start/Region" - though that doesn't really work for me - the purpose is no clear enough>

@Steve: why would you need to lock a record start point or a record region - is there a need for this?

Peter
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waxcylinder
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Re: locked Play Region/cursor

Post by waxcylinder » Tue Apr 28, 2015 11:42 am

And whatever nomenclature we give to the command(s) surely they should be in the Transport menu rather than the Edit Menu :?:

Peter.
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steve
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Re: locked Play Region/cursor

Post by steve » Tue Apr 28, 2015 10:22 pm

waxcylinder wrote: I have some serious reservations about this mockup of a Transport Toolbar with a speed control:

1) It will be far too easy for users to accidentally nudge the slider (we already know that folk do this with the pan and gain sliders in the TCP). Fair enough that you do have the visual cue of the numerical speed, but the user may fail to notice that.
I would suggest that the default Control Toolbar looks like this:

Image

If a user decides to enable the play speed slider, to that the Control Toolbar looks like this;

Image

and then claims to have "accidentally nudged the slider", then I really don't have much sympathy. It's pretty darned obvious that there is an additional slider in the toolbar.
waxcylinder wrote: 2) I assume that the speed control only applies to playback - but because it resided in the Transport Toolbar some users may infer that it applies to recording too.
Conceptually there is no reason why it could not also apply to recording.
Practically I see no benefit in that so unless someone comes up with a really good use case I would be inclined to grey out the slider and display "x 1.0" on record.

waxcylinder wrote:
steve wrote: How about "Transport Lock"?
I think that it should apply to recording as well as playback.
Nice idea - but I don't think it's quite right. I kind of conveys a total lock of the transport system - i.e. no playback and no recording.
OK, so you like the idea?
Personally I think that "Transport > Lock" is adequate as a working title, but if you prefer we could just call it "Thingummyjig" until someone comes up with a better name.
waxcylinder wrote:@Steve: why would you need to lock a record start point or a record region - is there a need for this?
Main reason is that it is far more logical than "sometimes" tying the recording region to the "selection". "Selection" should have nothing to do with the length of the recording. The "selection" is about what gets edited. As previously demonstrated the "selection" and the "play region" are quite different things.

Let's say that you want to record for exactly 1 hour. To do that, a logical procedure would be to set (by whatever means) the "transport region" to a duration of 1 hour.
If you want to play back 1 hour of a long track, then the logical procedure would be to set (by whatever means) the "transport region" to a duration of 1 hour.
waxcylinder wrote:And whatever nomenclature we give to the command)s) surely they should be in the Transport menu rather than the Edit Menu
Yes, clearly so.
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Gale Andrews
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Re: locked Play Region/cursor

Post by Gale Andrews » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:45 am

steve wrote:Conceptually I think it makes no sense to "lock" the "current play position" because it is transient by its nature.
It's useful though, and it would be a feature that we never had before, given 2.1.0 could only "lock the static cursor position as a play region".

Why useful? It saves steps as against SHIFT + A, SHIFT + END, Lock Play Region, LEFT arrow.
steve wrote:It could make sense to "save and restore" a "current play position", but when we have a fully defined and consistent behaviour I'm not yet convinced that there will be a practical use case for doing this as a separate action.
The case is clear to me in 2.1.0. "Lock the static cursor position as a play region" then create a selection and you can still standard play from the locked position without disturbing the selection (in other words, one of the primary advantages of the lock feature).
steve wrote:Although the "Transcription Toolbar" was developed separately from the "Control Toolbar", I now firmly believe that the speed control should be a part of the Control Toolbar (which may be optionally hidden and locked at x1 forward). This should be a big help for Paul in that it clearly associates scrub speed with the "transcription" speed. The implication being that the "play at speed" slider should also allow negative values (for reverse play).
I'm inclined to agree on first reaction, if the interface issues Peter mentions can be dealt with.

One advantage of a separate Play button for Transcription Toolbar is the ease of switching between standard 1x and an already determined "transcription speed". In Steve's mockup:
Image
I could envisage the black "1.0" being a separate Play button for that indicated speed and that the main Play button still always plays at 1x.

That slightly waters down the benefit of clarity with Paul's scrubbing, but I don't see it as a given that a play button speed must control the scrub speed. I find it much more intuitive that mouse movement or specific scrubbing controls change the scrub speed based on 1x. This again assumes that there is a use case for a separate "transcription speed" that stays put even if you play at normal speed using another method.


Gale
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Re: locked Play Region/cursor

Post by Gale Andrews » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:52 am

steve wrote:I think that a large part of this problem is that we do not visually distinguish between the current "play position" when stopped, and the "start of the play region". Things would fall into place much better if we did:
Image
I quite like the idea of the extra downward pointing grey "play from" position though we would want that also when there is no selection region.

Gale
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Gale Andrews
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Re: locked Play Region/cursor

Post by Gale Andrews » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:17 am

steve wrote:
waxcylinder wrote: I have some serious reservations about this mockup of a Transport Toolbar with a speed control:

1) It will be far too easy for users to accidentally nudge the slider (we already know that folk do this with the pan and gain sliders in the TCP). Fair enough that you do have the visual cue of the numerical speed, but the user may fail to notice that.
I would suggest that the default Control Toolbar looks like this:

Image

If a user decides to enable the play speed slider, to that the Control Toolbar looks like this;

Image
How does user enable the play speed slider and how do we make that discoverable?
steve wrote:I would be inclined to grey out the slider and display "x 1.0" on record.
Yes.
steve wrote:
waxcylinder wrote:
steve wrote: How about "Transport Lock"?
I think that it should apply to recording as well as playback.
Nice idea - but I don't think it's quite right. I kind of conveys a total lock of the transport system - i.e. no playback and no recording.
OK, so you like the idea?
I'm giving a cautious welcome to also locking the recording start/region.
steve wrote:
waxcylinder wrote:@Steve: why would you need to lock a record start point or a record region - is there a need for this?
Main reason is that it is far more logical than "sometimes" tying the recording region to the "selection". "Selection" should have nothing to do with the length of the recording. The "selection" is about what gets edited. As previously demonstrated the "selection" and the "play region" are quite different things.
Disagree that the selection should never have anything to do with the length of the recording. The current "solution" works for me where overdub ties the recording to the selection but recording always starts from the cursor position even if overdub is off.

It would be useful to lock the recording start/region to other than the cursor position or selection region, just as it would to lock the playback start/region.

I am not sure if you are saying that we should require setting the playback start/region or recording start/region when we simply want to play or record as we do now, but I would like the locked recording start/region to be an additional but not mandatory feature.


Gale
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waxcylinder
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Re: locked Play Region/cursor

Post by waxcylinder » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:45 am

steve wrote: Image
and then claims to have "accidentally nudged the slider", then I really don't have much sympathy. It's pretty darned obvious that there is an additional slider in the toolbar.
My issue with this is that the speed slider is very close to the transport buttons and will almost certainly have the mouse pointer dragged over it when accessing the buttons - and that is when an accidental nudge might occur.
steve wrote:
waxcylinder wrote: 2) I assume that the speed control only applies to playback - but because it resided in the Transport Toolbar some users may infer that it applies to recording too.
Conceptually there is no reason why it could not also apply to recording.
Practically I see no benefit in that so unless someone comes up with a really good use case I would be inclined to grey out the slider and display "x 1.0" on record.
+1 to graying out the slider and speed display when in record mode (active or paused - or when Timer Record is waiting to record)
steve wrote:
waxcylinder wrote:
steve wrote: How about "Transport Lock"?
I think that it should apply to recording as well as playback.
Nice idea - but I don't think it's quite right. I kind of conveys a total lock of the transport system - i.e. no playback and no recording.
OK, so you like the idea?
Personally I think that "Transport > Lock" is adequate as a working title, but if you prefer we could just call it "Thingummyjig" until someone comes up with a better name.
Yes, I'm definitely warming to the idea :)

I suggest that you just go ahead and with the working title "Transport > Lock"/"Transport > Unock" as you suggest - meanwhile we can scratch our heads for possible alternatives. But, these commands should definitely ne in the Transport Menu.

At least this will give Gale back his play-from lock - and I'm beginning to see the odd use-case where I might even find a good use for it ;)
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waxcylinder
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Re: locked Play Region/cursor

Post by waxcylinder » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:59 am

Gale Andrews wrote:One advantage of a separate Play button for Transcription Toolbar is the ease of switching between standard 1x and an already determined "transcription speed". In Steve's mockup:
Image
I could envisage the black "1.0" being a separate Play button for that indicated speed and that the main Play button still always plays at 1x.
Ooh, that's a cute idea Gale
Gale Andrews wrote:How does user enable the play speed slider and how do we make that discoverable?
An excellent point there Gale - needs some thought

UPDATE:
maybe the suggested extra "play at speed" button cold somehow effect the toggling on/off of the slider :idea: :?:
Gale Andrews wrote:I quite like the idea of the extra downward pointing grey "play from" position though we would want that also when there is no selection region.
I quite like that too - and yes I think we would want it when there is no selection region.

Is it, or is it not, a replacement for the current doozy left-pointing triangle ?
Gale Andrews wrote:I'm giving a cautious welcome to also locking the recording start/region.
I don't think I am - at the moment I'm -0.5 on that, but "I'm open to persuasion"
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