I've got quite a few early CD releases of prog rock (SuperTramp) jazz fusion (Weather Report) that sound flat and tinny with kick bass reduced to tap sounds that I'm attempting to give a big, live sound in Audacity similar to what DJ's do to old vinyl samplings but not using over dubs of electronic bass lines.
I've scoured YouTube and conducted online searches and can't seem to find any A/B examples, just tutorials on what tools to use to do this but demo'ed on modern recordings that don't seem to need those type of edits.
I've made quite a bit of headway on my own but find it's a time consuming trial and error process and thought maybe someone figured out other ways of doing this more quickly and easily. I'm having a lot of fun learning a lot about how to do this with Audacity, but feel I need to get more sun.
Now I know why most of the old school grammy winning mixing engineers are overweight and pale complected in their YouTube interviews.
'70's/'80's CD music remix examples using Audacity
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If you require help using Audacity, please post on the forum board relevant to your operating system:
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Tim Lookingbill
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Re: '70's/'80's CD music remix examples using Audacity
One tip:
Select part of the track and open the Equalization effect. On the "Graphic Eq" view, set the controls "flat" (the "Flatten" button), then move one slider up and press the Preview button. Reset to "flat" and repeat with the next slider. You will find that the extreme bass sliders do little for increasing "punch" but that other sliders that are fairly low frequency will. Experience will make finding the appropriate slider to move a lot quicker and easier. Sorry, I don't know shortcuts for gaining experience
Select part of the track and open the Equalization effect. On the "Graphic Eq" view, set the controls "flat" (the "Flatten" button), then move one slider up and press the Preview button. Reset to "flat" and repeat with the next slider. You will find that the extreme bass sliders do little for increasing "punch" but that other sliders that are fairly low frequency will. Experience will make finding the appropriate slider to move a lot quicker and easier. Sorry, I don't know shortcuts for gaining experience
9/10 questions are answered in the FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS (FAQ)
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Tim Lookingbill
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Re: '70's/'80's CD music remix examples using Audacity
Steve, prior to my registering here after using Audacity exactly as you described and then some on about 30 aiff's, I took quite a bit of time reading your posts to others in searches on similar topics. Hope you don't feel offended that I got a laugh from recognizing your "Captain Obvious" EQ tip to my thread. I can see I'm not going to get any responses here so I appreciate your efforts not just on the forums but also your plugins work (your Limiter in particular) and now I'm assuming your style of levity.
I'm surprised there's no one doing what I'm attempting, not even on YouTube. What I have come across are folks playing the vinyl versions on their own audio systems recorded off their digital video camera mic of the type and era of music I'm trying to fix and noticing a huge difference not only in bass response and added reverb but also pitch reduction compared to the mp3 samples on Amazon which sound exactly (small) as they did on the original vinyl back in the '70's and now on CD.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG3Uefa8t9U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7wexi6F5zM
After 40 years I never realized how much signal processing was going on with music back then before digital came along and revealed to me why what I heard on the radio and what I got after the purchase was so different and disappointing. I was buying into the idea that the sound was suppose to be improved on the CD. Just yesterday I heard a snippet of SuperTramp used on a cable TV commercial and sure enough it had a nice fuller sound and the vocals were reduced in pitch.
Where does one go to get hardware or software that does this automatically in real time or in post processing?
Are there restrictions posting on these forums before/after processing demo's of purchased commercial CD music under fair use copyright laws? I was thinking of posting my before/after attempts to get feedback on whether my headphone sourced edits have affected my judgement. I notice my edits heard on my headphones hardly make a dent listening on big box home audio speakers or in my car with subs in the trunk. But I also note I can crank up the volume far more than the original without distortion.
I'm surprised there's no one doing what I'm attempting, not even on YouTube. What I have come across are folks playing the vinyl versions on their own audio systems recorded off their digital video camera mic of the type and era of music I'm trying to fix and noticing a huge difference not only in bass response and added reverb but also pitch reduction compared to the mp3 samples on Amazon which sound exactly (small) as they did on the original vinyl back in the '70's and now on CD.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG3Uefa8t9U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7wexi6F5zM
After 40 years I never realized how much signal processing was going on with music back then before digital came along and revealed to me why what I heard on the radio and what I got after the purchase was so different and disappointing. I was buying into the idea that the sound was suppose to be improved on the CD. Just yesterday I heard a snippet of SuperTramp used on a cable TV commercial and sure enough it had a nice fuller sound and the vocals were reduced in pitch.
Where does one go to get hardware or software that does this automatically in real time or in post processing?
Are there restrictions posting on these forums before/after processing demo's of purchased commercial CD music under fair use copyright laws? I was thinking of posting my before/after attempts to get feedback on whether my headphone sourced edits have affected my judgement. I notice my edits heard on my headphones hardly make a dent listening on big box home audio speakers or in my car with subs in the trunk. But I also note I can crank up the volume far more than the original without distortion.
Re: '70's/'80's CD music remix examples using Audacity
TV commercials have dynamic-range-compression applied to make them loud, ( see loudness wars ). That can be done in Audacity, but not in real-time.Tim Lookingbill wrote:... Just yesterday I heard a snippet of SuperTramp used on a cable TV commercial and sure enough it had a nice fuller sound and the vocals were reduced in pitch.
It's possible the unsatisfactory EQ you've now noticed may be due to age : high frequency hearing goes first ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyacusis#PresentationTim Lookingbill wrote:After 40 years ...
There are free VST live hosts and Digital Audio Workstations, [software], which allow real-time adjustments ...Tim Lookingbill wrote:Where does one go to get hardware or software that does this automatically in real time or in post processing?
http://bedroomproducersblog.com/2011/05 ... lications/
More Freebies ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fr ... nd_editing
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Tim Lookingbill
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Re: '70's/'80's CD music remix examples using Audacity
Thanks for the links, Trebor. I'll have to spend some time sorting out what those inline "Digital Workstation" VST's do and how they would connect with my setup.
Since you question my hearing of high frequencies due to age, I take it the YouTube videos didn't make clear the type of sound quality I'm describing and it has nothing to do with Loudness Wars. It's about making the music sound big as it did on FM radio back in the '70's & '80's which was the only way we could base our music purchases. There was no in-store sampling back then and they didn't take music back if you didn't like it once you opened the package. My hearing was fine back then as it is now because I'm hearing the same thing today as I did on the LP which sounded like crap (not big), the same on the CD today.
Did you compare the Maynard Ferguson "Awright, Awright" YouTube version with Amazon's mp3? Here's the YouTube version of the small sounding, speeded up mp3...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36NzG6BmvFY
Hear a difference? I do and you can't amplify that without extreme discomfort. Loud does not equate to big.
Not trying to argue with you, just making my point more clear from what I'm getting from your answers.
Do you have any before and after sound improvement samples of the kind of sound in the music I'm describing? You know, make small, tinny sounding music sound big and opened up?
Since you question my hearing of high frequencies due to age, I take it the YouTube videos didn't make clear the type of sound quality I'm describing and it has nothing to do with Loudness Wars. It's about making the music sound big as it did on FM radio back in the '70's & '80's which was the only way we could base our music purchases. There was no in-store sampling back then and they didn't take music back if you didn't like it once you opened the package. My hearing was fine back then as it is now because I'm hearing the same thing today as I did on the LP which sounded like crap (not big), the same on the CD today.
Did you compare the Maynard Ferguson "Awright, Awright" YouTube version with Amazon's mp3? Here's the YouTube version of the small sounding, speeded up mp3...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36NzG6BmvFY
Hear a difference? I do and you can't amplify that without extreme discomfort. Loud does not equate to big.
Not trying to argue with you, just making my point more clear from what I'm getting from your answers.
Do you have any before and after sound improvement samples of the kind of sound in the music I'm describing? You know, make small, tinny sounding music sound big and opened up?
Re: '70's/'80's CD music remix examples using Audacity
You are asking a very broad question. There is no "one click" answer. Try Google search and include the term "remastering" in your search string.Tim Lookingbill wrote:I've got quite a few early CD releases of prog rock (SuperTramp) jazz fusion (Weather Report) that sound flat and tinny with kick bass reduced to tap sounds that I'm attempting to give a big, live sound in Audacity similar to what DJ's do to old vinyl samplings but not using over dubs of electronic bass lines.
I've scoured YouTube and conducted online searches and can't seem to find any A/B examples, just tutorials on what tools to use to do this but demo'ed on modern recordings that don't seem to need those type of edits.
I've made quite a bit of headway on my own but find it's a time consuming trial and error process and thought maybe someone figured out other ways of doing this more quickly and easily. I'm having a lot of fun learning a lot about how to do this with Audacity, but feel I need to get more sun.
Now I know why most of the old school grammy winning mixing engineers are overweight and pale complected in their YouTube interviews.
Also, have a look at "multi-band compression".
9/10 questions are answered in the FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS (FAQ)
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Tim Lookingbill
- Posts: 248
- Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:20 am
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Re: '70's/'80's CD music remix examples using Audacity
Thanks for the feedback.
I'll continue to scour YouTube for A/B remix samples.
I'll continue to scour YouTube for A/B remix samples.
Re: '70's/'80's CD music remix examples using Audacity
The live VST hosts allow allow you use free VST plugins like equalizers or compressors in real-time , which isn't possible in Audacity.Tim Lookingbill wrote:Thanks for the links, Trebor. I'll have to spend some time sorting out what those inline "Digital Workstation" VST's do and how they would connect with my setup.
I just remembered that Windows Media Player, which comes with Windows OS, has a real-time* equalizer built in ...
- Windows Media Player has hidden equalizer.gif (751.36 KiB) Viewed 2558 times
The only other controls other than equalization and compression to make the sound "big" are those which modify the the stereo-image, ( which I have not applied to the above , see my next post in this thread).Tim Lookingbill wrote:... making the music sound big ... make small, tinny sounding music sound big and opened up?
[ The technical quality of the sound on YouTube can be very poor , it's not a reliable reference source ].
e.g. http://bedroomproducersblog.com/2013/06 ... -software/steve wrote:... Try Google search and include the term "remastering" in your search string ...
Last edited by Trebor on Tue Aug 19, 2014 11:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: '70's/'80's CD music remix examples using Audacity
"Modern Spacer" effect VST plugin from Antress [Free] ...
http://antress.er-webs.com/
YouTube demo ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOq2SJ5mJQE
http://antress.er-webs.com/
YouTube demo ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOq2SJ5mJQE
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Tim Lookingbill
- Posts: 248
- Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:20 am
- Operating System: OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard or earlier
Re: '70's/'80's CD music remix examples using Audacity
Trebor, I really appreciate your time and effort to post the VST plugin A/B sample effects. It gives me a better idea and insight on how they affect the character of sound and the amount and level of precision the control knobs provide. I won't be using a Dynamic Compressor. A Limiter so far is the magic bullet for making it loud while retaining clarity.
I gather from that and the "Modern Spacer" YouTube video these plugins appear to be more designed for subtle enhancements for music that is generally already clean and dynamic compared to what I've accomplished experimenting in Audacity with the MF "Awright, Awright" example which I'ld describe as more "restorative" in nature with not so subtle but very pronounced changes.
Trebor wrote:
What I've found to be the biggest problem in particular with this piece and others with similar dynamics is the difficulty surgically EQ'ing to bring out the punchy portion of the kick drum without making the bass guitar too boomy which reverb type effects squelch into a oddly loud, bass-less, flair like fog in the lower midrange. I can hear it in your posted samples as well as in my Audacity edits. Making it loud is not a problem, but retaining clarity across its entire audio spectrum is.
I realize I can't expect perfection working on an aiff copy of music mixed/mastered decades ago, but I'm so thrilled by what I'm able to accomplish in Audacity, I tend to expect too much and think if I can take it this far in Audacity what do more robust, automated preset alternatives provide that others on YouTube and in this forum may be using. Wanted to get ideas from what others are using according to their results, the main reason I posted this topic.
BTW, Trebor, can those VST plugins you linked to edit the waveform or are they only designed to be used in host apps that allow real time play through sound shaping?
Thank you, Trebor, for providing helpful information.
I gather from that and the "Modern Spacer" YouTube video these plugins appear to be more designed for subtle enhancements for music that is generally already clean and dynamic compared to what I've accomplished experimenting in Audacity with the MF "Awright, Awright" example which I'ld describe as more "restorative" in nature with not so subtle but very pronounced changes.
Trebor wrote:
The YouTube "Awright, Awright" version used in your edit sample is pretty close to the original aiff I copied from my CD. My copy is just a bit more crispy and shrill with the pyramiding trumpets sounding like an amplified high pitched kazoo with a torn reed. YouTube is a bit softer but still with very little bass, openness and clarity as is the aiff. Your demo's told me enough to where I got the gist of what they do to the sound.[ The technical quality of the sound on YouTube can be very poor , it's not a reliable reference source ].
What I've found to be the biggest problem in particular with this piece and others with similar dynamics is the difficulty surgically EQ'ing to bring out the punchy portion of the kick drum without making the bass guitar too boomy which reverb type effects squelch into a oddly loud, bass-less, flair like fog in the lower midrange. I can hear it in your posted samples as well as in my Audacity edits. Making it loud is not a problem, but retaining clarity across its entire audio spectrum is.
I realize I can't expect perfection working on an aiff copy of music mixed/mastered decades ago, but I'm so thrilled by what I'm able to accomplish in Audacity, I tend to expect too much and think if I can take it this far in Audacity what do more robust, automated preset alternatives provide that others on YouTube and in this forum may be using. Wanted to get ideas from what others are using according to their results, the main reason I posted this topic.
BTW, Trebor, can those VST plugins you linked to edit the waveform or are they only designed to be used in host apps that allow real time play through sound shaping?
Thank you, Trebor, for providing helpful information.