Transport and Meter toolbars dockable in the Mixer Board.

[billw58]

Mock-up graphic to follow.

I'll be very interested to see how you handle a track with an envelope but no waveform. To me, Audacity's "standard" envelope display would make no sense without the waveform to envelop. Not to belabour my Pro Tools bias, but a controller-level model makes more sense to me in this situation.

-- Bill

[PGA]

I've come into this topic late (as usual for me) but I like the ideas being kicked around here. The most recent of my AV sequences had opening and closing sections of the sound track each built up from five separate sound files. In order to apply a fade in at the start of the sequence and a fade out at the end, my choices lay between exporting a fully mixed WAV and then re-importing it and applying fade in and fade out before exporting another WAV or taking the fully mixed WAV into the AV sequence builder software and enveloping the start and end in that. Having the ability within Audacity to apply fades in and fades out to the ends of an entire soundtrack assembly would be a very useful feature for me. And, if I have understood correctly, it would be "non-destructive" editing done using the Envelope tool? If that's right, it is even better; if I get it wrong first time, I can go back and try again.

[steve]

I'll be very interested to see how you handle a track with an envelope but no waveform

In much the same way as Time Tracks

Fading out a multi-track project.

master-fader-demo.png (54.06 KiB) Viewed 1525 times

I think Bill is right that a "Lock" button is probably not needed, so I've replaced it with a "Play" button (not necessarily the best word). The idea is that:

• When the "Rec" button is pressed, moving the Mater Track gain slider (or the equivalent slider in the Mixer Board) will write control points to the Master Track envelope.
• When the "Play" button is pressed, the Master Track envelope will cause the Master Track gain slider (and corresponding Mixer Board slider) to follow the envelope, which in turn will adjust all audio track sliders by the same amount (relative to their current setting).
• When neither the "Rec" or "Play" buttons are pressed, the Master Fader is inactive, thus providing a convenient way to return a track to its unmodified playback level for solo track editing.
• Deleting the Master Track will automatically disable the Master Track, returning all channels to their "normal" (unmodified) positions so there is no possibility of track gain sliders becoming "locked" in the wrong position.

I think that this would provide (amongst other benefits) a much easier way to non-destructively fade out a multi-track project.
The other major benefit being an easy way to non-destructively lower (or raise) the level of a multi-track project without altering the track balance, particularly for avoiding clipping.

[steve]

it would be "non-destructive" editing done using the Envelope tool? If that's right,

Yes, non-destructive.
Yes you could use the envelope tool directly on the Master Track, or "record" gain slider movement.

[billw58]

Yes, very nice. The Time Track analogy is perfect - that, too, is a controller-level display.

Could we have "-infinity" at the bottom of the scale?

-- Bill∞

[steve]

Could we have "-infinity" at the bottom of the scale?

Sure you can, it's only a mock-up. You can have it in polka-dot if you like

There would be a lot of detail to sort out if this was implemented, much of which would require developer input, for example how to handle "thinning" the controller data and whether "Play" is active while in "Rec" mode. The ability to select and delete multiple control points would also be very useful. I'm not too concerned about the fine detail at this stage, just in the outline idea.

[Gale Andrews]

If you have enough tracks you will probably have them collapsed or auto fitted so if you delete the Master Fader track, you won't be able to see the gain sliders move on the other tracks.

Are you saying you cannot move the Master Fader slider unless playing or recording?

When the "Play" button is pressed, the Master Track envelope will cause the Master Track gain slider (and corresponding Mixer Board slider) to follow the envelope, which in turn will adjust all audio track sliders by the same amount (relative to their current setting)

I think advanced users will really like applying an envelope to multiple tracks but I'll still play silly user here. What envelope are we following - one added by the user? How do you add points - with Envelope Tool?

What happens if there is a per-track envelope already?

What happens if the user does not add envelope points? Is the envelope line then visible at 0.0 or 0?

I think it would be a shame to over-complicate what could be a really "simple" time saving feature with a multi-track envelope unless the envelope was well hidden away, either in Preferences or with a button on the Master Fader track. The way Audacity does it, It can get really confusing if you have an envelope and envelope changing effects combined.



Gale

[billw58]

Reading Gale's post I think the master gain should not affect the individual track gain sliders but should instead simply apply gain to the overall mix. This is simpler and to my mind more transparent. It also leaves open the possibility that eventually track envelopes will be reflected in the track gain slider and the ability to have per-track automation.

With no envelope points in the master fader track, the envelope would be a line at whatever setting the master fader is at.

Envelope points are added with the envelope tool, same as with the Time Track.

When the fader is in "automation-write" mode (during playback), touching the fader causes envelope points to be written. When playback is stopped the envelope points are thinned.

When the fader is in "automation-read" mode, it follows the envelope and the envelope is applied.

When the fader is not in "automation-read" mode, the envelope is ignored the fixed setting of the master gain fader is applied.

-- Bill

[steve]

If you have enough tracks you will probably have them collapsed or auto fitted so if you delete the Master Fader track, you won't be able to see the gain sliders move on the other tracks.

From previous discussions I think we were in agreement that it would be better to have the track sliders and buttons higher (above the track info) in the track control panel, which would help in this situation. If it is essential that the gain slider is visible at all times, then Audacity already fails in this respect.

I think Bill's comments answer the other questions raised by Gale.

I think the master gain should not affect the individual track gain sliders but should instead simply apply gain to the overall mix.

That would also work, though I think this could be argued either way (and may eventually be decided by the technicalities of programming the feature).
The case for moving the individual track gain sliders is possibly most easily seen if there are a lot of audio tracks. In this case, the Master Fader Track may not be visible, but if there is a Master Fader envelope (for example, a fade out), then it's presence will be obvious from looking at any of the audio tracks and seeing the track gain slider move.

If the Master Fader track "simply applies gain to the overall mix", then it may be less obvious what is happening when looking at one or two expanded tracks if the Master Fader Track is not visible.

Per-track automation is not precluded by this proposal. It would be possible to have both single track automation and Master Track automation. I think that how this would work would be intuitive and easy to understand in practice, though quite difficult to explain as a theoretical concept (but I'll try )
Let's say that the Master Fader track has a fade down from 0 dB to -3 dB. On "read automation" playback, all track sliders would move from their current position to 3 dB lower.
Now let's say that Track 1 is given an envelope (with the Envelope Tool) from 0 dB to -3 dB. On read automation" playback, the track gain slider for this track would now move from 0 dB to -6 dB.

One thing that is probably worth considering is that normally a user will either be using the Master Fader feature, or not using the Master Fader feature. A lot of the "potential confusions" that are being raised are unlikely to happen in practice because such confusion is based on the premise that there is a Master Fader and the user is unaware that there is a Master Fader. This would simply not be the case. Just as there is no Time Track unless a user explicitly creates one, so too there is no Master Fader track unless the user explicitly creates it. Users that are simply transferring vinyl to digital would have no need for ever creating a master fader track (just as they are unlikely to ever have need of creating a Time Track).

[Gale Andrews]

Reading Gale's post I think the master gain should not affect the individual track gain sliders but should instead simply apply gain to the overall mix. This is simpler and to my mind more transparent. It also leaves open the possibility that eventually track envelopes will be reflected in the track gain slider and the ability to have per-track automation.

The case for moving the individual track gain sliders is possibly most easily seen if there are a lot of audio tracks. In this case, the Master Fader Track may not be visible

This is why I suggested the Master Fader should always be visible, especially if the gain sliders are not visible or are not allowed to move. I think if there are "automation" features, the track gain sliders should move, otherwise it is not clear what is happening.

I would thus see the Master Fader Track as a fixed piece of UI which would clip to the bottom of the Timeline. You can drag it upwards towards the Timeline to make it less tall.

When the fader is in "automation-write" mode (during playback), touching the fader causes envelope points to be written. When playback is stopped the envelope points are thinned.

What do you mean by "thinned" - some points are discarded?

When the fader is in "automation-read" mode, it follows the envelope and the envelope is applied.

When the fader is not in "automation-read" mode, the envelope is ignored the fixed setting of the master gain fader is applied.

So to clarify, you mean that any envelope points are ignored, but not the (implied) vertical level of the envelope?

In which mode is the fader when you export?

I still feel that closing the Fader Track would require a warning and a Preference for that warning - it would be really dangerous if the gain was set to unity on close. What happens if you do close Fader Track then re-open it - do you lose only the envelope points or also the fader gain?

I think there may still be a need for a permanently visible fader gain slider. Fader Track respects the fader gain slider if open, but does not modify the fader gain slider if the Fader Track is closed. Fader Track thus just becomes a way to expose the advanced envelope functionality.


Gale