Staying in rhythm when creating loops, editing

[Trebor]

can you spot the join ?...

[VenusAndMars]

can you spot the join ?...

Nope, not a chance. I know where it must be, being familiar with the tune, but from listening to it no. It sounds really great, would you tell me how you did it?
I have sometimes (rarely) achieved such a smooth edit but only with sheer luck or elese after so much trial-and-error I've lost all interest.

Please wise me up Trebor - do you use the scientific approach or 'play it by ear'?

[VenusAndMars]

Hey, they posted my plug-ins so maybe you can check them out.
That's cool. Hopefully yer on the same network, huh?

I'll surely check your plug-ins loopman. Btw: how do you mean 'on the same network'? Anyhoo, loop editing by trial-and-error is of course only an option when working with one snippet of music and repeating that, not if you have several such snippets looping in parallell to the same basic beat. That is definitely where you have to somehow automate things and get scientific about it.

I could never swing that by trial-and-error. Indeed, even when clipping some bars of music and pasting them end-to-end is something I either have to get right almost at once or I will 'wear out' the clip, i.e. get tired of the whole thing and having to abandon the project or else let it lie for some time and return with a 'fresh ear'.

User Trebor posted a good example of repeating a single clip pasting them end-to-end a couple of hours ago made from an Earth Wind & Fire clip I had previously upped. I still don't know how he did it but I think he is so good at it he just found the right point with a minimum of trying and pasted the resulting clip end-to-end. It's absolutely seamless and the kind of thing I was thinking of in my first post although I don't have the vocabulary to describe it in a few words, that's one reason I get so long-winded.

[Trebor]

Please wise me up Trebor - do you use the scientific approach or 'play it by ear'?

Roughly by ear then precisely by eye: zooming in on the waveform until I can see the sample points.

A tiny bit of cross-fade , close to a zero-crossing-point.

Tip: once you have looped the sample apply some reverb: it helps hide the join.

[VenusAndMars]

Right, thanks for cluing me in Trebor. I always wondered what 'cross-fade' stood for, now I'll find out. It is such a boon to be a part of this community and be able to volley ideas and questions back and forth with knowledgeable, well-spoken people like your estimable self, steve and the loopman.

Not only is Audacity great software to begin with (and the price sure is right) but this way I feel involved, if only on the sidelines, in its development.
Great!

[steve]

Just remembered this plug-in: http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic ... 2&p=157572
It's a "Quick conversion calculator" that is available from the Audacity Generate menu.
Although it does not actually "generate" anything, I made it as a Generate type plug-in so that it does not require an audio selection, though if there is no audio selection when the plug-in is run, a new audio track will be created as a by-product.
Currently supported functions:

• dB to linear
• dB to percent
• percent to dB
• BPM to beat length
• Beat length to BPM
• Midi note number to Frequency (Hz)
• Frequency to Midi note number
• Frequency (Hz) to cycle period (seconds)
• Cycle period (seconds) to Frequency (Hz)
• Frequency (Hz) to cycle length (samples)
• cycle length (samples) to Frequency (Hz)
• Degrees to Radians
• Radians to Degrees
• Addition
• Multiplication
• Division
• Nyquist script

[loopman]

Nice tune VAM,
Ya know, when I was real young (late 1970s), I really thought Earth, Wind, and Fire were satanic.
That probably sounds weird, but I think it was just "in the air" or something. Like, everyone
kept saying that The Eagles were satanic, and every time I saw that Eagles cover with the
stick sticking out of the water, I just knew it was satanic. I got that same feeling with EW&F
album covers.

Listening to their music later, I realize that I must have been making that up in my brain or
something. Friday the 13th society and all, jeez mister Kotta...

Anyways, I downloaded your audio and made a loop. From what I can tell its somewhere in
the realm of 73-75 bpm, but that's difficult to say given that it's live.

My cut was based on the rhythm (by ear) method. Also, looking at the waveform, you can
see "sets" of waveforms, and when they start over again. You then pick the waveform at
the end of the set, and cut before the start of the next waveform.

EW&F-LOOP.wav

Loop001

(292.29 KiB) Downloaded 55 times

Also, had some inspiration last night and updated my LLC chart program to include Sub-Buttons.
I've noticed as I've been (trying) to learn DnB sequencing that sometimes the beats are before
and after the starting point of normal sequencer buttons. I suppose this is to create a less "perfectly"
timed track...a more realistic track.

Anyway, this gave me the inspiration for dividing each sequencer button by 16. Probably useless
information most of the time, that's why it's at the back....

LoOp LeNgTh CaLC3.xls

Sub-Button Support Added

(38 KiB) Downloaded 53 times

[VenusAndMars]

loopman, Nice tune VAM you say, what does VAM mean?

I think you're right that any satanistic associations in connection with EW&F were all in your mind. I have always thoght of them as mildly religious (though not in an off-putting way) the way Maurice Whites' lyrics speak of 'master', 'higher purpose' and such. A few lines from the song 'Keep Your Head To The Sky' here:

Master told me one day
I'd find peace in every way
-------------------
He gave me the will to be free
Purpose to live His reality
Hey, and I found myself never alone
Chances came to make me strong

To step right up and be a man
'Cause you need faith to understand
So we're saying for you to hear
Keep your head in faith's atmosphere

No satanism there, I don't think. Your loop, just like Trebors, sounds great. I would just like to have the complete two bar bass drum figure (as in the clip attached to this post) and loop that but the singing unfortunately gets in the way.

When this song first came out in '77 there was a 45 rpm single version that had a considerably longer instrumental break in the middle where they somehow managed to keep the singer quiet for upwards of eight bars (they probably snuck up behind him and gagged him) and I used to have that single but no more.

It would have been perfect for cutting loops out of as the beat is so rock solid.

[loopman]

Awww, I'm not saying that EW&F were satanic (or the Eagles either).
It's just that every time I saw an EW&F album cover, I'd think it was satanic.
I was very young then, and constanly on the look-out for being abducted by
satantic cultists.
I think I worried more about cultists back then than Nuclear war. Never really
listened to the music as I was, like 6 or something, just things I thought about...

As for the loop, why not just use (roughly):
0.047687-1.741964
It seems to me that that segment of audio just repeats and the dude sings over
the last part. There might be an additional beat at 2.793875, but that's just the
biz.

Also, you should check out the first beat of your mp3 loop, it's got:
01. Bass Drum
02. Cowbell
03. Some vocal remenant.

Man, I'd use that sample in HammerHead, crank it up to 160 bpm and throw
down some serious techno....

Later VAM (venus and mars) dude...

[loopman]

Allright, I was rounding off my House music collection today, adding a new 1979 tune by Shalamar
called "Right in the Socket" (that will add to my Disco House collection well).

Anyways, I decided to see if I could make a loop of some of the audio, hopefully this can help
others.

As I mentioned before, I usually deconstruct loops made by others using math and Audacity labels
as I like to see where each beat was programmed in a sequencer. However, with loops that I make
from completed tunes, I usually just give it the eyeball.

Here's an example:

loop points

loop.jpg (37.34 KiB) Viewed 1446 times

As you can see, I was looking for the big beats, knowing that my loop would sound best if it started
with one big beat, then ended at the start of another big beat. When doing this, it really helps to
know what waveforms look like, which can generally be learned through observation and/or working
with a sequencer program.

Anyway, one trouble with this part of the song is that it has a TON of instruments (beats, piano, and
guitar). Making these sound good when looped takes a carefull ear, but this track plays so fast it's
difficult to really observe the waveforms and listen at the same time.

Therefore, I happened to notice the waveform directly BEFORE my first "big beat", and noticed
that several big beats down it repeated (circled in red). I then knew that that second small
waveform was probably the beginning of something (guitar or piano) and that the loop might
sound good if it ended after the second one. Turns out it was a piano.

Anyway, have a listen, I think it's pretty groovey....

shalamarloop.wav

nice loop

(681.69 KiB) Downloaded 59 times

Don't forget to add small fade ins/outs to either side of the loop. Usually a 0.003 fade will keep
the loop from clicking when repeated AND not have silence between loops...