Audacity Forum

Here's an interesting observation - try this:
Make two mono tracks, each one obviously different.
Make the top one the Right Channel, and the bottom one the Left Channel
Select both tracks, and then Mix and Render (Tracks>Mix and Render).
Notice that it creates a mixed Stereo track, but the positions have switched.
This leads me to believe that by default, in a stereo track, the top channel is the left and the bottom is the right.

However: if you use the command Make Stereo Track (Audio Track>Make Stereo track), it ignores the Right Channel and Left Channel designation, and just merges them - whatever was the top channel now becomes the Left Channel (even if you had originally called it the Right) and vice versa.

Finally, notice that if you now split this stereo track (Audio Track>Split Stereo Track) it automatically makes the top one the Left and the bottom one the Right.

I'm not so happy with this inconsistency - a command that is called "Make Stereo Track" should honor your designations of Left Channel and Right Channel, even if it is in the form of a warning that says "Make Stereo Track automatically makes the channel on top the Left and the one on the bottom Right. Proceed?" if they are in the wrong positions.

solanus wrote:Select both tracks, and then Mix and Render (Tracks>Mix and Render).
Notice that it creates a mixed Stereo track, but the positions have switched.

The clue is in the name, (though probably not apparent to many users): "Mix and Render". The stereo track is the result of mixing the selected tracks, so their channel settings, pan positions and gain levels will all affect the result.

solanus wrote: if you use the command Make Stereo Track (Audio Track>Make Stereo track), it ignores the Right Channel and Left Channel designation, and just merges them

I agree this is not very clear. It would be more obvious what was occurring if the command was called "Stick this track on top of the track below to make a stereo track". That's all it is actually doing, but there's not room in the menu for that. Can you think of a better name that will fit in the menu?

solanus wrote:Audio Track>Split Stereo Track

I think that one is quite descriptive - all that is happening is that the upper (left) channel and lower (right) channel are being split from each other.

The other one (in recent versions of Audacity 1.3) is "Split to Mono".
Again I think this is quite descriptive. The channels are split to make two mono tracks.

I think that the first two are least clear, but easily discoverable - (and covered in the manual)

I agree this is not very clear. It would be more obvious what was occurring if the command was called "Stick this track on top of the track below to make a stereo track". That's all it is actually doing, but there's not room in the menu for that. Can you think of a better name that will fit in the menu?

Actually, I don't have a problem with the name, the issue is that it ignores the Left Channel and Right Channel designations.
If someone has gone to the trouble of designating their single-channel tracks as Left Channel and Right Channel, then any command that creates a stereo track from those tracks should put them in the correct locations.
As it is now, it's a cardinal sin of UI - the "Make Stereo Track" has the ability to switch the left and right channels without any way of informing the user, allowing even a moderately experienced Audacity user to unknowingly make a defective product.
This problem would definitely be somewhat mitigated if, as stated in the other posts, the left and right in a stereo track were clearly marked.

solanus wrote:Why not set the Mute/Solo/Volume/Pan controls at the vertical center of the two channels?

Currently the Track Control Panel scrolls up from the bottom. With that arrangement it would only be possible to get about 2 tracks on screen before the controls disappear, unless the TCP was able to scroll from both the top and bottom at the same time (I don't know if that is possible).

solanus wrote:As it is now, it's a cardinal sin of UI - the "Make Stereo Track" has the ability to switch the left and right channels without any way of informing the user,

If you have "Track A" at the top set to the Right channel, and "Track B" below, set to the Left channel, then are you suggesting that "Make Stereo Track" should keep Track A as the Right channel and Track B as the Left channel?

If you do that, then one of two things must happen.

a) Track A stays at the top and remains as the Right channel and Track B stays at the bottom and remains as the Left channel. The problem with this is that there are then some stereo channels with Left at the top and some with Right at the top, which would be very confusing. It would even be possible to have a "stereo" track where both channels were left or both channels right.

b) Track A remains as the Right channel, but jumps down below Track B. Isn't that a cardinal sin?

What should happen if both mono tracks are set to the Left channel?

The current scheme is that Track A stays at the top and Track B stays at the bottom. Channels are allocated to be consistent with all other stereo tracks - Left at the top and Right at the bottom.

Track A remains as the Right channel, but jumps down below Track B. Isn't that a cardinal sin?

But that's exactly what happens if you use the Mix and Render command - and that's what should happen.
If the convention is to always have the Left on top, then making something Stereo should put the left on top.

What should happen if both mono tracks are set to the Left channel?

Now that issue is the responsibility of the user, since single channel tracks are clearly marked Left, Right or Mono.
So if a user sets both tracks to Left, or both tracks to Right, or both tracks to Mono, they either aren't paying attention or they don't care which is which.
But if they do set one to Left and the other to Right, then they obviously care which one is which, so the command should respect that decision and re-order them correctly.

"Mix and Render" is completely different from just sticking the tracks one on top of the other.
"Mix and Render" processes all selected tracks, applies gain level, pan position and envelope settings and mixes them down into a single track.
"Make Stereo Track" just "glues" one track on top of the track below it. No processing takes place. They are literally just stuck together.

Each has its own use. One use for the "Make Stereo Track" is that it provides a fast way of swapping the left and right channels of a stereo track - just split the track, drag one above the other, then stick them back together again.

solanus wrote:Now that issue is the responsibility of the user

But someone would need to decide what would actually happen. The programmer would need to know what result their code should produce. Someone did decide, and they decided on the current behaviour. The difference between Mix and Render and Make Stereo Track is intentional - they provide different functionality.

Of course I understand the difference between Mix and Render and Make Stereo Track. I also understand that re-coding Make Stereo Track to behave as I think it should won't actually happen, at least not in the foreseeable future.

If right is above left and you "Make Stereo Track" I agree it's nonsensical to reverse the channels, though easy to see it's why it's as it is. I was thinking before now that we needed a review bug for this. I think "b) Track A remains as the Right channel, but jumps down below Track B" is exactly what should happen because it keeps the audible left and right as they were. It means less need to label L and R. If two lefts, "Make Stereo Track" changes the bottom track to right - user chose a switch of channels because (s)he made two lefts into left and right.

Gale

Regarding the question of the behaviour of the "Make Stereo Track" item in the Track drop down menu, I think it is acceptable as is, even if it "reverses" tracks that are set as "Left" and "Right" if right is above left when the command is executed. If we start looking at those designations, then we have so also consider pan settings, and what it means to "Make Stereo Track" from two Mono tracks. So I agree with Steve's observations earlier in this thread.

-- Bill

There does seem to be a consensus (at least three votes) on moving Track Info down as that has wider benefits.

billw58 wrote:Regarding the question of the behaviour of the "Make Stereo Track" item in the Track drop down menu, I think it is acceptable as is, even if it "reverses" tracks that are set as "Left" and "Right" if right is above left when the command is executed. If we start looking at those designations, then we have so also consider pan settings, and what it means to "Make Stereo Track" from two Mono tracks.

If you have R above L with L hard panned to left, the panning is broken now IMO - make it a stereo track and what should be the L is inaudible and replaced with the R

Don't see why it affects making stereo from two mono tracks - that stops as now.

• If it has two mono, it takes the top as left
• If it has left above right, do as now
• If right above left, left moves above right to prevent reversal. It may look odd but that is what user asked for. Don't see why user should have to think in advance and move the R up before making stereo
• If left above left, second left becomes right since user asked for stereo.

If and when I have energy I'll raise it as a Review item on Bugzilla, even though I can imagine others opposing tracks "jumping down".



Gale