Importance of recording Levels

[steve]

Personally I'd record just a little less "hot" than that (recording level a little lower).
At about the 7 minute mark it looks like it is getting precariously close to clipping.

Assuming that You have the pre-amp set really close to "max-without-clipping" then it looks like you have the recording level in Windows pretty well spot on (signal right up to 0 dB but not exceeding 0 dB). In these circumstances I would turn down the gain on the pre-amp just a little to allow a bit more headroom throughout the signal chain (I prefer to avoid any clipping of the music).

As a matter of interest (I don't use Vista for recording), in how many places do you need to set the recording level? Is it just on the pre-amp and then one slider in the Control Panel?

[Ctrl+N]

Yes, I like to record hot. Sadly, by the standards of most commercial CDs, it is not hot at all. My point is that you have to look closely to see any peaks approaching zero at all. I mean, this is meant to illustrate about as hot as you wanna go. Past this point every gain in volume is a loss of quality. To me 'headroom' really refers to something that happens in the pre-mastering stage in studio recording before putting it on a CD. It is wasted space used only to guard against clipping. Mind you I understand that one must factor in a consideration concerning how much dynamic range is really needed. Or also that the peak level should not be the same level in every CD. But the idea of 'headroom' as such; my understanding is that it is part of the recording process, not the mastering process.

The recording device has a level control and that is it. Well, there's a gain trim on the PhonoPlus; and that's the point, if the incoming signal is digital, I don't need a volume level on the recording device at all. Obviously lowering the volume would not reduce the digital clipping if it already occurred and increasing it would not increase the resolution of the signal; that could be done within Audacity or even a regular wave editing program after the fact.

I hope I don't appear rude at times. I tend to get caught up in the ideas I am struggling to express and forget the niceties.

Speaking more on a question I often see raised here: 1) I think the brief single sample clipping 7 times within twenty minutes is inaudible and really OK. 2) I think it is alright to digitally clip pops and clicks; changing the nature of a distortion from analogue to digital won't be audible according to human perception. To our ears all white noise sound nearly identical, even though it looks different when looking at the waveform. The only worry is whether the declicking software will work with it.

My real worry is if I am clipping the pops, maybe I am not leaving room for the loudest possible dynamic in the music. So I factor in whether the pops are being clipped; it just isn't a set rule that I will avoid clipping noise entirely.

[steve]

I don't think there should be any problem if pops are clipped. The main difference is that they will sound a bit more "click" rather than "pop". The various click repair techniques should still work on clipped pops as on unclipped pops - perhaps even better depending on the tool. However, if looking for the magical 1:1 scaling, then the maximum possible signal from the pre-amp (clipped in the pre-amp A/D converter to 0 dB) would come to exactly 0 dB in Audacity.

I hope I don't appear rude at times. I tend to get caught up in the ideas I am struggling to express and forget the niceties.

No problem It's one of the hazards of text only communication.

[waxcylinder]

Yes, I like to record hot... I think the brief single sample clipping 7 times within twenty minutes is inaudible and really OK...

My real worry is if I am clipping the pops, maybe I am not leaving room for the loudest possible dynamic in the music. So I factor in whether the pops are being clipped; it just isn't a set rule that I will avoid clipping noise entirely.

My approach is somewhat similar, I like to record hottish too (I think it come from old analog habits) - so if I am recording an LP side and a couple of tracks have the occasional clip in them what I do is:
1) Export the whole recording as a 32-bit WAV file
2) Process that file throgh Brian Davies' ClickRepair software
3) Re-import into Audacity (where it shows as a second track under the first
4) Examine the CR processed track to see if CR has removed all the clipped bits (that's if they were clicks and not just hot)
5) Then use Audacity's Repair effect to fix the clipped section
6) And of course then delete the original recorded track

I usually find this quicker than going back and re-recording a whole side of an LP with the signal level reduced. - which would, of course, be the proper thing to do

WC

[Ctrl+N]

I usually find this quicker than going back and re-recording a whole side of an LP with the signal level reduced. - which would, of course, be the proper thing to do

This is why stevethefiddle recommends aiming for a -6 dB average with any recording that falls between -12 dB and 0 dB being accepted. This way with experience one can find a single setting that works for everything. The funny thing about vinyl is that the maximum possible volume can increase by widening the groove, but digital zero decibels is always the maximum volume on a CD.

I'd like to include just two more pics to demonstrate the wide disparity between recording levels on commercial Cds, but I have maxed out my upload quota. Is there a way around this? Can I just remove some of the previous pictures or something?

[steve]

I'd like to include just two more pics to demonstrate the wide disparity between recording levels on commercial Cds, but I have maxed out my upload quota. Is there a way around this? Can I just remove some of the previous pictures or something?

I think that either the forum is getting close to whatever limit has been set, or there is some other problem with the forum software.
I'll notify Admin and see if I can find out anything.

[steve]

Update: It looks like the allocated storage space for uploads had been reached (for the entire forum).
The storage space has now been increased, so uploading should now be back to normal.

[Ctrl+N]

Elvis Presley small.png (41.99 KiB) Viewed 1336 times

Chaos and Creation small.png (38.48 KiB) Viewed 1337 times

This, the album Elvis Presley from 2005 mastered by Kevan Budd, is a rare example of transferring an album to CD in its pristine condition without adding any compression whatsoever.

A quote from Kevan:

Regarding the dynamics I always try to leave the peak dynamics intact as you only have to increase the volume control on your hi-fi if you want it louder at no cost to fidelity.

http://www.elvisinfonet.com/interview_kevanbudd.html
This is the point I am highlighting.

Paul McCarthey's Chaos and Creation in the Backyard is beautifully produced. This album is a throwback to his Beatles years. With a lot of the creativity in production and variety in writing style typical of The Beatles.

But I feel that this album has been compressed to the point of the destruction of the sound. Just what is lost is difficult to describe, but it is the 'peak dynamic' that Kevan was talking about. The compression lets the CD sound loud even at low volumes, yet at high volume it becomes difficult to listen to. The option of turning the volume up on your hi-fi is lost.

Parsley Sage is an example of highly compressed pop music. This is something else. No music spends this much time at maximum value naturally. Indeed, it is unnatural for the peaks to hit the same value so consistently. It is of course only possible through high digital compression.

I chose enough songs to make it about 20 minutes of music in both so that they would be comparably zoomed in. I cheated a little by skipping the second and third songs from Chaos and starting with the fourth, because they were a little less loud. It would still be a big contrast to Elvis Presley.

I think CDs have the potential to be better than vinyl, but due to bad mastering practices, vinyl is still better than CDs, which is sad.