I realise this is already in the Pending Feature Requests list (quoted below), however I can’t see it on the Feature Requests page (neither under Mixer Board nor Meter Toolbar sections) to give it a +1 there. I would have expected to find it under Mixer Board. So I’ve resorted to trying this, as I would like to add one. If in that list (as a separate item - see my comment below), there would then be an opportunity for others to also +1. I’m sorry if this post is not appropriate due to me not properly understanding the management of the feature requests - please remove if so.
This would be a massively useful improvement for me. At present, once envelopes have been applied, sadly the otherwise very useful track level meter indicators on the Mixer Board become essentially useless for me. So it seems very odd to me that it’s currently that way. But if it’s good for others then maybe an Option is necessary, as mentioned in the response in Pending Feature Requests.
Quoted from Pending Feature Requests (right at the top, but combined with several other related feature requests for these meters, in the same item, that are not of any real interest to me so are not included in this quote):
“Currently, if a track has a gain envelope, the meters on the Mixer Board (View->Mixer Board) show the amplitude without the envelope applied. The meters would, to me at least, be more useful if they represented the actual contribution of their tracks to the mix.”
Many thanks - and sorry again if not properly understanding the process.
Yes, many thanks for clarifying. It’s specifically the Mixer Board meters that I’m referring to. I only mentioned Meter Toolbars because in the Feature Requests list, under Mixer Board (where I initially looked) there’s a note saying “See also requests for per-track meters in Meter Toobar (sic)” - that’s why I looked there too - but didn’t find it there either.
Yes, that’s great, many thanks for that. (Though if we are referring to the same place - https://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Feature_Requests - then I’m not seeing it there yet - but maybe the addition is not yet ‘live’ there.)
[I’ve also realised that I maybe completely misunderstood the note on that page regarding ‘requests in Meter Toobar’. Rather than meaning ‘in the Meter Toolbar section of the page’, maybe it actually means regarding a requested feature to put per-track meters _in the Toolbar itself_ (though not sure how they would fit there, when there’s a lot of tracks…). I was led to assume the former meaning because ‘Meter Toobar’ is a link to that section - but maybe that’s just typical Wiki reference protocol. If so then sorry for my confusion.]
This sounds a lot more like a bug than a “feature request” - I’m pretty sure this was an oversight by the original developer (Vaughan, now sadly dead RIP, so he can no longer comment).
It does make the Mixer Board a lot less useful I’m thinking.
I don’t think it was. It was a very long time ago, but I vaguely recollect asking about this at the time because I thought that it should show the level after applying envelopes. At that time, I was the new boy, V was the senior developer, and if I recall correctly, he disagreed.
Fine by me, though I would much prefer it to be an “option” (preferably via a checkbox in the Mixer Board interface).
On real (hardware) mixer boards, there are usually buttons that allow you to see the “Pre-fader / Pre-Eq” level - this is analogous to “Pre-envelope / Pre-track-gain”. (Note that currently the Meter Board shows pre-envelope post-track-gain).
When there are envelopes, it is very difficult to see the actual level of the track audio data. The actual level is particularly important for 16-bit / 24-bit tracks as they clip at 0dB. The “play level” (post envelope / post track gain) is probably the more useful as the default, but it can still be useful to see the level of the track audio data.
Example: Track data over 0dB, but envelope makes it appear below 0 dB.
A very interesting discussion. Thanks for all your consideration about this matter so far.
I don’t want to hijack my own thread for something else, or distract from its original purpose, but that’s a particularly interesting point about clipping no longer being apparent if ‘enveloped-down’. I hadn’t realised that clipping of the track level is no longer shown in red (if enabled, of course) if you envelope the track down below the 0dB point. Effectively this hides a potential problem with the underlying track level, which doesn’t seem quite right. This seems particularly odd to me given that if you use envelope to raise the track’s mix level above 0dB then it does turn red, even though the underlying track level is below 0dB - which seems a bit inconsistent to me. (It’s not as if raising the track’s mix level above 0dB using the track fader would cause the track to turn red… so I’m not at all sure what turning red when enveloping takes it above 0dB really means…) Personally it seems to me that the track’s clip points should remain red (if enabled) where it’s above 0dB but ‘enveloped down’ below 0dB. But not sure if this is in the right category to be raised as a bug? Maybe I should just put my view on the general ‘2.4.2 feedback/comments’ board? Many thanks.
[P.S. As a matter of approach, I aim to a) keep my ‘input’ tracks well away from 0dB and b) use enveloping mostly to reduce mix levels at the points required, and only very rarely to increase them. But of course there are a multitude of quite different use cases.]
Which is why I think it useful to be able to see the underlying track level, but as you point out, it is also useful to be able to see the level that it plays at - hence having an option for either.
If the track’s play level is above 0 dB, then it will clip on playback and if exported the exported file will also clip.
If the track’s play level is below 0 dB, then it will not clip on playback.
Audacity’s default format is “32-bit float” and it is highly recommended to always work with tracks in this format. A BIG benefit of 32-bit float is that it can go over 0 dB without damage.
Example:
Start with a 32-bit float audio track, peak level -2 dB.
Amplify by 3dB - the peak level is now +1 dB. Clip lines are displayed. The peaks will be clipped on playback, but the audio itself is not damaged because it is 32-bit float.
Bring the level down below 0 dB with an envelope. Clip lines are no longer displayed. The peaks will not be clipped on playback, and it will not be clipped on export.
Note that this is a rather artificial example. By default the Amplify effect does not allow you to amplify above 0 dB.
