Audacity Forum

billw58 wrote:See Steve's reply further up this thread on using Splits instead of Labels to mark selections.

Thanks. I believe I explained in my reply to Steve why splits are not really a substitute for markers.

It seems to me that the suggestions offered here are basically crutches. Yes, one can use this or that work-around to do the same thing in Audacity today -- almost, and not quite as easily or conveniently as it can be done in a version of an application 10 years old and never updated since then.

(Btw, some explanation about Sound Studio is needed. The application was originally released by Lucius Kwok (http://felttip.com/) in 1999; version 2 followed in 2002. In 2005, Sound Studio was transferred to Freeverse (http://freeverse.com/), who released version 3. The original developer took it back in 2010 and released version 4; the current version is 4.2, released earlier this year.

The version I'm still using and to which I referred in my posts is version 2, released in 2002. I tried version 3 once, didn't like it, found it corrupted the AIFF files I used it on, so I went back to v2, which I've been using ever since. I haven't tried v4 yet. Needless to say, I have no connection whatever with either Freeverse or the original developer.)

alexius wrote: you can't move a split

True, but they aren't intended to be "markers on the waveform" although people use them like that, indicating this is possibly wanted (or a way to make the labels remain marked in the waveform). Also splits aren't permanent because you can click on them to merge the split.

alexius wrote:I can't convert splits to labels

Command - B?

alexius wrote:(somewhat counterintuively, I'd say) I can't actually split (export multiple) the file by splits.

You can by labelling the splits.

alexius wrote:I can use point labels, but I can't select quickly between them

This needs a more intuitive way of doing it (double-click between labels?) but you can click in one label, then drag in the waveform or in the label track to the next label; release when the yellow snap guide appears. This is accurate. You can also click in one label and SHIFT- click close to the Timeline position of the label. It is accurate if you see the yellow snap guide when you SHIFT-click, otherwise not accurate. But you can still drag the region to snap to the label to complete selection between the labels.

alexius wrote: I can use region labels, but I can only do it by dragging

You can do it to sample accuracy using Selection Toolbar.

Also using the mark-in / mark-out analogy of making two points into a label, you can click at the "in", SHIFT-click at the "out" and there's your region, now label it with Command - B. You could say it's easier as you only have to insert one "marker". But you do have to discover that and you probably won't if you are looking to do it with two "markers". You might find some more tips here:
http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/NavigationTips

I'll add your vote for an intuitive way of selecting between labels. Anything else you want to vote for? But bear in mind we won't from where we are now rip out the existing label method, splits and clips and start over with something else. New features have been added on (perhaps the joins sometimes show) so anything new would be another addition.

I would say I'm not sure how to make it easier for people who are looking for mark in/ out. I don't think selecting between labels is that great for what you want to do (unless double click between labels made a region label and removed the point labels) because export multiple would then export files between what you intend as region segments.



Gale

Gale Andrews wrote:they aren't intended to be "markers on the waveform" although people use them like that

My point precisely.

Gale Andrews wrote:

alexius wrote:I can't convert splits to labels

Command - B?

OK. I've split my 12 hrs file into 12 segments. How do I convert the splits into label with cmd-B -- without having to do the same operation a dozen times? Also, note another counter-intuitive behaviour. Double-click between splits selects the whole clip; so I would expect shift-double-clicking in the adjacent clip would extend the selection to the whole adjacent clip; but it only extends the selection to the click point (same thing as shift-click).

Gale Andrews wrote:you can click in one label, then drag in the waveform or in the label track to the next label; release when the yellow snap guide appears.

I've already explained above that this doesn't work at low resolution.

Gale Andrews wrote:You can do it to sample accuracy using Selection Toolbar.

If I know in advance the location where to place the marker or label. Which, of course, I don't -- Catch-22 again.

Gale Andrews wrote:Also using the mark-in / mark-out analogy of making two points into a label, you can click at the "in", SHIFT-click at the "out" and there's your region, now label it with Command - B.

No. Think about it -- I find the approximate start point ("in"). I zoom in to find the precise location where I want the segment to start, audition it to make sure, and click. Then I zoom out, scroll to roughly where I want the end point ("out"), zoom in -- and then what? How do I know where to shift-click? As soon as I click anywhere to audition, I can no longer shift-click to extend the selection from the "in" point. I could shift-click at low rez, then zoom in and move the label to where it should be, but it's cumbersome, and scrolling through the waveform at hi rez inconvenient.

Gale Andrews wrote:I'll add your vote for an intuitive way of selecting between labels.

Actually, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that, IMHO, to be useful, Audacity needs some convenient method of making quickly precise, accurate selections. Sound Studio 2, as well as other Mac audio editors (eg, Peak, Amadeus) , achieve that with markers. Whether Audacity does it with labels and splits or with markers is immaterial; equally so what they are called. The stress is on convenient, quickly, and precise. Right now Audacity has what I would call three pseudo-markers -- point labels, region labels, and splits. None of them serves the purpose. Worse, there's no easy way to batch-convert from one to the other. Maybe Audacity can achieve the basic task of acurately selecting a segment of the waveform by adding true markers, or by changing the behaviour of the existing pseudo-markers. Perhaps the easiest step forward might be to add the capability of converting (singly or in batches) splits into labelled regions and viceversa. I just don't know enough to say. All I know is that, as it stands, Audacity is, for me, not very useful.

rmcellig wrote: Here is what I do at the moment in sound studio regarding labels.
1. I click the mouse at the beginning of the selection by pressing the letter M. Then I click at the end of the selection to insert another marker.

2. I then press option left arrow to go back to the first marker, and then shift-option right arrow to select the sound between the two markers. From there, I can copy, cut, normalize or whatever with the selected waveform.

What do I have to do in Audacity that would come close to the two steps described above?

I believe that this is the central question to your enquiry?

1) "click the mouse at the beginning of the selection".
I presume that first you precisely locate where the beginning will be? Having determined the exact position, you then click and add the marker.

2) "Then I click at the end of the selection to insert another marker."
Again I presume that you take some time and care about finding the exact position that you want the end position?

The difference in the way that I use Audacity to how you use Sound Studio 2 is that I roughly select the entire region first, then fiddle about getting the ends in precisely the right place, whereas you fiddle about getting the ends in precisely the right place first, then select the entire region.

A useful shortcut in Audacity is the "B" key.
When selecting the precise position for the start of the selection, click at a point that is close to the correct place, then move your mouse a couple of seconds either to the right or to the left without clicking, then press the "B" key. Audacity will then play the audio between where you clicked and where your mouse pointer was when you pressed "B". If you need to nudge the start position a little to the right or to the left, tap the left/right cursor keys, then use the "B" key again to hear if it is exactly right.
To increase the precision, zoom in.

Once you have located the start position exactly, zoom out so that you can see (roughly) where the required section ends.
Hold down the shift key and click.

You now have a selection that is has exactly the right start time, and roughly the right end time.
At this point I would press Ctrl+B (that'll probably be Cmd+B on a Mac), however you do not need to do that now if you don't want to.

Move your mouse pointer near to the end of the selection (do not click) and press "B" to hear if the end is in the correct place.
Use shift+right cursor key to nudge the end of the selection to the right or Cmd+shift+left cursor key to nudge it to the left.
OR
Hold the shift key down and drag the end of the selection.

There are many ways to accomplish the task quickly and easily in Audacity, but not the same method as in Sound Studio 2.

Gale Andrews wrote:an intuitive way of selecting between labels

I agree that would be a useful feature.

steve wrote:

rmcellig wrote: I then press option left arrow to go back to the first marker, and then shift-option right arrow to select the sound between the two markers.

I don't understand why the OP needs to do that. To select the region in Sound Studio, he doesn't need to go back to the first marker -- he just needs to press shift-opt-left arrow, or double click anywhere between the markers.

steve wrote:The difference in the way that I use Audacity to how you use Sound Studio 2 is that I roughly select the entire region first, then fiddle about getting the ends in precisely the right place, whereas you fiddle about getting the ends in precisely the right place first, then select the entire region.

Perhaps. But it seems to me that the difference is more fundamental. The real problem is that Audacity has no convenient way of "getting the ends in precisely the right place". Say you've defined roughly the region. To fine tune it, you need to drag the labels. How do you know to what point in the waveform do you need to drag them? You audition, find the exact point, and then? As soon as you click on the label to drag it, you've lost the precise spot where you want to move the label to. What you describe later in your message is simply a (to my mind cumbersome) way of getting around this limitation, which markers (as used by Sound Studio, and Amadeus, and Peak, and others) don't have.

alexius wrote:To fine tune it, you need to drag the labels.

Yes. Do that while the labelled region is selected. As long as you are using a region label the selection will follow the label.

I am really enjoying this thread! There are two items that I would like some clarification on

1. Pasting sound. I also use Sound Studio on the Mac. If for example the sound is recorded properly in the right channel but rather weak in the left channel, all I do is highlight the sound in the right channel and paste it in the left channel. Very easy and quick. So far in Audacity, the only way I could figure out is to use the Channel mixer plugin which seems to be the only option? I find it takes longer using this plugin compared to using the Sound Studio method. Any other Audacity options?

2. The other thing is that in Sound Studio when I want to save an aiff file as for example an mp3 file, I go to file save as and then select MP3 option and save. The save is pretty quick for a 2 hour aiff file. About a minute or so. The only way in Audacity I could see so far is to use the export feature which takes over 19 minutes to do. As I type this, my file is still saving in Audacity. Is there a quicker way of saving a file in another format in Audacity? Options?

Thanks for the continuing support!!

Here is a screenshot of the save in progress in Audacity

rmcellig wrote:1. Pasting sound. I also use Sound Studio on the Mac. If for example the sound is recorded properly in the right channel but rather weak in the left channel, all I do is highlight the sound in the right channel and paste it in the left channel. Very easy and quick. So far in Audacity, the only way I could figure out is to use the Channel mixer plugin which seems to be the only option? I find it takes longer using this plugin compared to using the Sound Studio method. Any other Audacity options?

Audacity does not support pasting into one channel only of a stereo track. To do this in Audacity you would first split the track into separate Left and Right tracks, do the paste operation and then (optional) make the two tracks back into one stereo track (splitting and making stereo are both virtually instant regardless of the length of the track).

To split the track:
Click on the name of the track and from the drop down menu select "Split Stereo Track".

To make the two tracks back into one stereo track:
Click on the name of the upper track and select "Make Stereo Track".
This step is optional because having separate Left and Right tracks will play in exactly the same way and will be exported exactly the same as having them as a single stereo track. It is usually more convenient to have one stereo track than separate Left and Right tracks (except for when you need to do something to Left or Right but not the other).

For the specific case that you mention:
"If for example the sound is recorded properly in the right channel but rather weak in the left channel"
If you paste the good channel to the weak channel then you will end up with identical data in both channels. Although there are still 2 channels, because they are now identical it is no longer stereo. It is now a mono recording (2 channel mono) and will sound identical to a single channel mono track. So in Audacity 1.3.13 the most efficient way to do this is:
1) Click on the name of the track and select "Split to Mono"
2) Click on the [X] in the top left corner of the weak track to delete it.
You now have a single channel mono track that will play out of both speakers in exactly the same way as a 2 channel mono track would.

rmcellig wrote: when I want to save an aiff file....

....Here is a screenshot of the save in progress in Audacity

Are you sure that is exporting an AIFF file?