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Re: Check out this little trick I discovered!
Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:17 am
by steve
billw58 wrote:The advantage of the OP's method is that you can vary the gain slider on the rendered track until you get the effect you want, then mix and render everything. With the Channel Mixer you'd have to choose some settings, apply it, then undo and try again if you didn't like it
A quick "hybrid" method using the Channel Mixer would be:
1) Select the (stereo) track and make a duplicate (Ctrl+D)
2) Select the duplicate (only) and use the Channel Mixer plug-in to swap and invert the L/R channels
New Left = -100% old Right
New Right = -100% old Left
3) Use the Gain sliders (or Mixer Board) to adjust the amount of widening - More of the new track for wider stereo.
Perhaps I should add this "trick" to the Help file?
Re: Check out this little trick I discovered!
Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:26 pm
by Thunderbolt1000T
billw58 wrote:The advantage of the OP's method is that you can vary the gain slider on the rendered track until you get the effect you want, then mix and render everything.
Exactly, Bill! Now all I need to do is to convert my favorite gain settings into settings in the plugin, which I'm really having trouble doing.
After I've completed step 7, I really like the way it sounds with the gain on both tracks set to 0. I've finally realized that that's the part Steve isn't getting, because I forgot to explain that. I've tried several times to get that exact mix in the plugin, but I haven't figured out which settings to use. Once I figure out the settings, then I can modify the .NY file on my computer so that the Wide Stereo setting is equivalent to what I get in my method. What settings would I use in the Channel Mixer plugin to achieve this same result?
Re: Check out this little trick I discovered!
Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:48 pm
by Thunderbolt1000T
steve wrote:A quick "hybrid" method using the Channel Mixer would be:
1) Select the (stereo) track and make a duplicate (Ctrl+D)
2) Select the duplicate (only) and use the Channel Mixer plug-in to swap and invert the L/R channels
New Left = -100% old Right
New Right = -100% old Left
3) Use the Gain sliders (or Mixer Board) to adjust the amount of widening - More of the new track for wider stereo.
Perhaps I should add this "trick" to the Help file?
Not exactly, but your method also works. The equivalent to what I'm doing would be to do the following. On the duplicate only, in the Channel Mixer plugin, select the "Vocal Remover (L/R Invert)" preset. In order to then get the exact result I prefer, I have to set the gain on the L/R Invert track to -6.02 for some reason. However, in my method, the gain on both tracks is set to 0. To make it narrower instead of wider, I would then apply the Invert effect on the L/R Invert track, then adjust the gain on the inverted track until I get the desired result.
In reply to an earlier post by Steve about making a duplicate track, I don't use control+d when doing it from scratch using my method, because as far as I know, control+d doesn't copy the original track to the clipboard, but control+c does. You would need to press control+c before pressing control+d, or step 7 would fail.
Re: Check out this little trick I discovered!
Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:34 pm
by steve
Thunderbolt1000T wrote:Not exactly, but your method also works.
The only;0 difference is the amount of gain that you would apply to each track.
In your version the New Left mix (with gain at 0) would be: {(Old Left) + (Old Left -Old Right)} = 2OL - OR
If you amplify the original track by -6dB (approx 1/2 on a linear scale) then that would of course be equivalent to {0.5 x (2OL - OR)} =
OL - (0.5 x OR)
With the version I described (with gain of the inverted track set at -6.02dB) it would be: {(Old Left) + [(-Old Right)/2]} =
OL - (0.5 x OR)
With the version I described (with gain of the original track set at +6.02dB) it would be: {[2x(Old Left)] + (-Old Right)} = 2OL - OR
If the original track is amplified by -6dB then that would again be equivalent to {0.5 x (2OL - OR)} =
OL - (0.5 x OR)
The Preset for Wide is: OL - (0.3 x OR)
The Preset for Extra Wide is: OL - (0.6 x OR)
Which setting sounds
best will depend on both personal taste and the amount of stereo spread in the original mix, so it looks like I've set the presets in the right ballpark
Re: Check out this little trick I discovered!
Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:51 pm
by Thunderbolt1000T
I think we've both completely lost each other, Steve. All those equasions confuse me. What I need to know is what percent values do I set in the edit fields in the Channel Mixer plugin, to get the equivalent of a combined mix of Vocal Remover (L/R) Invert (amplified to -6.02 DB) and the original audio? If I'm understanding what you're saying correctly, then on the left channel, OL would be set to 50 percent, and OR would be set to -50. On the right channel, OL would be set to -50, and OR would be set to 50. This does nothing but give me Vocal Remover (L/R) Invert, which is not what I want as the final result.
Re: Check out this little trick I discovered!
Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 11:40 pm
by billw58
To get a mix of the original track at 0 dB plus the processed track at -6 dB,
<-- LEFT CHANNEL OUTPUT -->
From original left channel: 100%
From original right channel: -33%
<-- RIGHT CHANNEL OUTPUT -->
From original left channel: -33%
From original right channel: 100%
This is because, with your method
L(new) = (1+n)L - nR
-6 dB = 0.5 (approximately)
Therefore L(new) = 1.5L - 0.5R
So the proportion of -R to L is 1/3.
I've just checked this out processing the same track using your steps and using those settings in the channel mixer and they sound identical to me aside from a level difference.
Inverting the track processed with the channel mixer, amplifying both tracks to they both peak at 0 dB, then mixing them leaves a residual at about -17 dB, but that is probably due to the approximations made above.
-- Bill
Re: Check out this little trick I discovered!
Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:37 am
by Thunderbolt1000T
Thanks, Bill! You've been a huge help. I just tested it with the settings you gave me, and I do get identical results, except that there is a 3.5 DB difference between the tracks, which really doesn't matter anyway, as long as I can get that same mix.
Just out of curiosity, even though I know you're right, where are you guies getting the value 0.5? It may be useful when modifying the .NY file.
Re: Check out this little trick I discovered!
Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:13 am
by Thunderbolt1000T
Update: I've successfully edited the .NY file, and I made a bacup of the original as well. I used a little guess work, but the line I needed to edit wasn't hard to find. I even tested it just to be sure it worked, and I didn't get any errors, and the results were perfect.
I'd like to add my settings as a new preset called "Wide Stereo 2" to the original .NY file, so that both mine and Steve's original would be options in the presets list on my computer. How would I go about doing this?
Re: Check out this little trick I discovered!
Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:01 am
by billw58
Thunderbolt1000T wrote:Just out of curiosity, even though I know you're right, where are you guies getting the value 0.5? It may be useful when modifying the .NY file.
Which factor of 0.5? In one case it is 0.5 = -6 dB (approximately, actually -6.0206 dB). In a previous post you said you wanted to mix the rendered track at -6.02 dB, which is close enough to a ratio of 0.5.
There is another factor of 0.5 that figures into the process, and that occurs when you do Tracks > Stereo to Mono on the copy. See my second post in this thread.
-- Bill
Re: Check out this little trick I discovered!
Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:14 am
by billw58
Thunderbolt1000T wrote:Update: I've successfully edited the .NY file, and I made a backup of the original as well. I used a little guess work, but the line I needed to edit wasn't hard to find. I even tested it just to be sure it worked, and I didn't get any errors, and the results were perfect.
I'd like to add my settings as a new preset called "Wide Stereo 2" to the original .NY file, so that both mine and Steve's original would be options in the presets list on my computer. How would I go about doing this?
What edits have you already made to the .NY file? Did you just change one of the existing presets to your own? To add a new preset you have to edit in two places:
1) Add your preset name to this list, followed by a comma:
Code: Select all
;control preset "Presets" choice "Use custom,Mono (Average),Mono (Both Left),Mono (Both Right),Centre to Left,Centre to Right,Swap Left/Right,Wide Stereo,Extra Wide,Vocal Remover (L/R invert),Vocal Remover (mono),Invert Left,Invert Right" 0
That will add the preset to the menu.
2) Edit the presets choice code:
Code: Select all
;; Create list of values from selected preset or from the slider values
(setq channels
(case preset
(1 (list 50 50 50 50)) ; Average
(2 (list 100 0 100 0)) ; Both Left
(3 (list 0 100 0 100)) ; Both Right
(4 (list 50 50 -50 50)) ; Centre to Left
(5 (list 50 -50 50 50)) ; Centre to Right
(6 (list 0 100 100 0)) ; Swap Left/Right
(7 (list 100 -30 -30 100)) ; Wide Stereo
(8 (list 100 -60 -60 100)) ; Extra Wide
(9 (list 100 -100 -100 100)) ; Vocal Remover L/R invert
(10 (list 100 -100 100 -100)) ; Vocal Remover mono
(11 (list -100 0 0 100)) ; Invert Left
(12 (list 100 0 0 -100)) ; Invert Right
(T (list left-mix-L left-mix-R right-mix-L right-mix-R))))
Note that the "Presets" control sets the variable
preset to 0 for "Use custom", 1 for "Mono(Average)", etc.
If you were to add your "Wide Stereo 2" between "Wide Stereo" and "Extra Wide" in the "Presets" control, then you would need to edit the choice code to add:
Code: Select all
(8 (list 100 -33 -33 100)) ; Wide Stereo 2
and then change the comparison values in the following clauses.
Note that your version is not very different from Steve's - his is 100, -30, yours is 100, -33. Might be easier in the long run just to edit Steve's "Wide Stereo" preset.
-- Bill