Needle importance in recording vinyl

[squibkick]

So I started testing out a bit nicer needle for recording to Audacity. The one that came with the ION TTUSE turntable just seemed a bit weak.

Can anyone give me insight on what types of needles to look for to get best sound quality. With the stock ION needle I seem to get more noise, clicks, and pops. With the nicer needle I tend to get less noise, clicks and pops. I have also noticed that the bass is quite heavy when using the nicer needle. I can't stop the volume meters from jumping off the charts with the nicer needle. So, please give me recommendations as to how to record using the nicer needle. It seems there may be a little bit of distortion with the use of the nicer needle. How can I get rid of this? Is there a way to set the record volume to stop the volume from being so intense and maxing out the volume meters?

Thanks

[kozikowski]

I can hear, with no effort, several of the posters on the forum scream, "Stop using that turntable!"

You are buffing up the toenails of a pig. Those turntables have terrible mechanical stability and groove tracking issues and because they're so cheap, the turntable platter isn't heavy enough to ride over wow and flutter issues. There are actually discussion group postings about how to push putty and lead solder into the inside of the turntable platter to make it heavier and improve the speed regulation.

Turntables or any devices that are designed to be this cheap are designed so everything is ready to fall apart at the same time. The putty in the platter thing tends to mess up the bearings and give you other problems.

You are going to throw this thing away when the last vinyl record goes through, right?

Your much more energetic cartridge is overloading the analog to digital converter and what you gain in clarity and volume, you will lose in overload and clipping distortion.

In my opinion.

The turntable was about $125, right? I just paid about that just for a good cartridge on my older turntable.

Oh, yes the noise. Some of that noise isn't coming from the record. The other thing these turntables push to the limit is the USB transmission pathway. It's not unusual (search the forums) for someone to transfer three or four records and then start having blasts of noise or low level growling noises along with the music. That's the USB system losing its mind. No firm solution for that one yet, other than to stop using USB and start using an analog connection.

So that's what you're up against, and no, I don't have any way, good or otherwise, out of your sound level problem. Let's see what the others have to say.

Koz

[squibkick]

I can understand the cringe of some of the pureist on this board but I am not one of those people. I am just a guy who wants to use a USB turntable to make some records into CDs and in doing so I would like to do it in the best possible manner. I did look through this forum to see if I could get my questions answered and saw similar posts but nothing that got to the direct issue I am asking about. I actually paid about $160 for the turntable. They must be going up in price due to rising interest in USB turntables. And to be honest I am not very knowledgeable when it comes to electronics and computers and that is why I am on this forum to learn more from those who are.

So, with all that said, how do you go analog with a turntable? I could use my nicer stanton if you think that would help my overall sound. This is what you mean by going analog, correct? If that doesn't work I am hoping to just get some sound advice in helping me to achieve my goal of converting my LPs to CDs.

So, Koz, I hate to be wasting anyone's time but I am just trying to become more knowledgeable in accomplishing my goal.

Oh yeah, and for the noise I experience, it has not gotten worse over time I just realize that the needle which came with the turntable is pretty low quality and I notice more noise with it over my home stereo system than with my nicer needle. So, I will cross my fingers and hope that the noise does not worsen and hpe that someone will teach me how to go analog with my home stereo turntable.

Thanks

Squib

[steve]

You are buffing up the toenails of a pig.

Lol, koz likes his colourful expressions

I could use my nicer stanton if you think that would help my overall sound

Let me guess - when you hook up the Stanton to your hi-fi it sounds load better than if you hook up the ION to the same hi-fi?

USB turntables are supposed to be easy and convenient, which I guess they are for people that have a set-up that works. As this is primarily a "help forum", we don't tend to hear from those people, we just hear from those that have problems. Having said that, I get the impression that these USB turntables are somewhat lacking when it comes to quality, so rigging up you Stanton is likely to be a little less convenient than just "plug and play", but possibly capable of better quality transfers.

Since you are asking about upgrading the cartridge, you clearly put some importance on the sound quality and are not completely satisfied with it as it is now.

So let's go down the "Stanton turntable / analogue recording" route.

When you play a record, you have a number of components, which from source to output are:
Record > stylus/cartridge/turntable > [phono pre-amp input of amplifier > power amp]* > loudspeakers.
*the phono pre-amp is often built into the same unit as the power amp. In some cases the pre-amp may be built into the record deck, in which case you may use a "line in" or "aux input" on the amplifier.

Since we want to record onto a computer, we have to modify this signal chain:
Record > stylus/cartridge/turntable > phono pre-amp > soundcard > hard disk drive

If the phono pre-amp is built into the record deck (usually not) then we simply plug the "line out" from the record deck into the "line in" of the sound card.

If, as is usually the case, there is no phono pre-amp in the record deck, then we need to go through a phono pre-amp before plugging into the "line in" of the sound card. If your hi-fi amp has a phono pre-amp, then you can probably use that and connect the "record output" of the amplifier to the "line in" of the computer sound card.

Now onto sound cards:
The quality of the sound card is just as important as the stylus, turntable, cartridge etc. Unfortunately, the quality of "on-board" sound cards is often not very good (designed for playing "beeps" and not much more). With laptop computers the situation is often worse in that they often do not have a "line in" socket, just a low quality microphone input socket.

If your computer has a low quality sound card, it is easy to upgrade it by adding a better PCI sound card that plugs into the motherboard. This is not the case for laptops, when the solution is usually to go with an external USB audio device (Behringer make a cheap and effective one - the UCA-202. There are several other makes and models, but that's the one I have got).

Once you have the pre-amp output connected to a line input, try out some of the tutorials from http://audacityteam.org/help/ to familiarise yourself with Audacity before embarking on an album sized project.

Once set up, the main problem that people have with getting it to work are "mixer" issues (setting the correct recording source) - so if it doesn't work, look here: http://audacityteam.org/wiki/index.php? ... bar_Issues

[waxcylinder]

Squib,

excellent advice from Koz and Steve. I threw away my ION ITTUSB before I was halfway through my vinyl conversion project - I got all of the tracking and wow&flutter issue with the lightweight ION that Koz talks about (actually it's in the attic gathering dust - $$ ££ offfers anyone ???) .

I would imagine that your Stanton deck will give you much better results (you don't say what model you have nor what arm and cartridge combination).

Steve talks about pre-amps. If as I suspect your Stanton is part of your hi-fi setup than your existing amplifier is likely to have suitable outputs for you to record from - you should you the outputs to Tape for recording or possibly you may have an Aux out. If you don't then there are a number of available small phono preamps available on the market (I use the Artcessories DJPreII) - see this thread: http://audacityteam.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=3114.

Steve's recommended soundcard seems to be a good one for working with Audacity - I looked at that when I was buying a USB soundcard, but I settled instead on the Edirol UA-1EX. This also works well with Audacity - it is more expensive that the Behringer, but has more features (I particularly wanted the input and output volume controls - and the digital input as I had many minidiscs to convert). I also use my soundcard to record from FM radio with excellent results.

The other investmat I made was to buy a new cartridge for my Technics/SME TT/arm - I thought it was worth it for the conversion project (and anyway the diamond tip got dislodged from my original 20-yearold cartridge.

Summary: yes the ION will work but you are likely to get better results with your Stanton and a few extra bits of kit (any chance you can send the ION back and get a refund?).

WC

[squibkick]

Thanks Stevethefddle.

This is sounding more and more complicated especially because I am currently using a laptop to do my transfers. Maybe I should just live with quality the USB turntable has to offer and be happy. I am a guitar player and a tone snob at that. Therefore, as with guitar I am always searching for the best tone I can get. Shit, I don't know anymore.

Thanks to this forum for taking the time to entertain my inquires. I know they are unusual as compared to the typical topics that go on here but I need to get to the bottom of the issues I have come across even if I am unable to do anything about it. I kinda feel deflatted at this point. Deflatted in the sense that maybe I should just be passive USB turntable guy who puts up with the shittier sound. Buying a nicer needle for my ION seems like a usless act. As stated before, I may gain volume and overall sound quality but find that it adds too much bass and some distortion at points.

Thanks everyone. If anyone else has other insightful thoughts on my questions and practices, please feel free to chime in.

[squibkick]

Is there a need or use in using the equalization function when cleaning up lps? I read a little bit about it in a different post but once again, it was dealing with my exact issue. If there is a benefit in using the equalization function, which setting should I use on normal lps?

Squib

[steve]

You've not said much about your Stanton deck set-up, so I'll assume that it sounds good and that you play it through a hi-fi amp with a "phono input" and a "tape out". (let us know if this is not the case)

A USB audio interface is probably the best option for use with a laptop - the UCA 202 will be cheaper than a replacement cartridge (the Edirol, as WC has said, is a little more money, but has some additional features that you may find useful). Whichever you use, it simply goes between the "tape out" (record out) of your amplifier and the computer.

As you are using the phono input of your amp, there should be little need for additional Equalisation. Reducing very low bass frequencies may be useful if you are getting noticeable "turntable rumble", but with a reasonable turntable there shouldn't really be any need. Eq. can help reduce crackle from the record, but at the expense of loosing clarity, so not generally good.

The most likely case where you may want to use a bit of Eq. is if you don't like the tone of the record (could be due to an old record that uses a non standard Equalisation curve, a producer with different taste to yourself, over emphasis of certain frequencies by your amp/record deck, or any other reason). It's very much a matter of personal taste.

(more info about RIAA here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization - this is something that your phono pre-amp does automatically)