1.2.6 Crashing consistently with large number of tracks

[diamond_socal]

I am a teacher and am trying to teach a podcasting class where I have students create audio files with sound effects and put them all together for children.

I am running Windows XP, I have a Fatal1TY sound card, the latest Lame MP3 encoder, the files were all captured in .wav format and my system is completely clean and free from viruses, trojans, etc. I have 2GB memory and plenty of hard drive space.

The book is 30 pages long and each page was is a short audio file (there are usually no more than 20 words per page).
I used Audacity to create sound effects from audio clips and saved them as .wav files (none is too large)
All of the files are in the same location/folder

I created a new project and then used Project / Import Audio to bring in the first 20 pages or so.
After synchronizing the timing between pages, I then used Project / Import Audio to add the next audio clip.
I clicked on that track and moved it up and into position.
I set up the next page of audio and repeated the process.

I currently have around 38 tracks and as I add the next sound effect, then use the Selection Tool to position the location where I would like to listen and select the Space bar to play, the program crashes.

I have tried different audio clips, different projects, saving the project and reloading it and the results are the same.

Please help. I am desperately trying to resolve this before the weekend as the students are going to be starting this project next week.

Thank you all for your assistance,

Regards,

Diamond

[kozikowski]

<<<...and plenty of hard drive space.>>>

What's that in numbers? Error check? Defrag? Audacity will not work into a highly fragmented hard drive.

Has this size project ever worked?

Does it work on a different machine?

Are you totally sure all your sound files are clean? Did you personally make them all?

Try the project in Audacity 1.3. You can put both versions on your machine as long as you only open one. Once you open and save a 1.2 project in 1.3, you can't go back.

Do you let Windows do the extensive memory check when you start the computer? That's gone out of fashion because everybody is in a big hurry. A project that big is going to go up into high memory and any instability up there will cause problems. If you can't get it to work any other way, you might try the Microsoft Memory Checker. It's a little rough to use, but when run multiple times, it will catch problems other tools miss.

http://oca.microsoft.com/en/windiag.asp

My first guess would be those "MP3" files you downloaded from the internet. Since Windows likes to hide file extensions, many people try to import AAC, M4A and other types of sound files by accident. That will cause severe problems.

Koz

[diamond_socal]

Plenty of hard drive space means 100's of GB's on a defragged drive.
I personally made the sound effects by ripping them from trusted sources (free sounds like lions roaring, children laughing, etc.)

It is quite difficult to move the project from one computer to another, or at least I've not yet learned how to do so as the project file points to specific computer directory structures. I've tried putting all the files on a flash drive, but I have the same issue as the device comes up as P: on one system and G: on another. I can successfully move the project file, but then it won't play as the .wav files are not where the project wants them to be either. I've successfully edited the project file as an .xml type file using find and replace but this gets a bit time consuming. Is there an easier way of "exporting" the project and all of its files so that it becomes portable and has everything needed to run?

Sorry for not getting back sooner, but the forum was down, or at least I could not access it for nearly three days.

The project worked as long as the number of tracks was less than 38. The magic number of tracks seemed to be 38 for this project. It didn't matter which wav files I used or how I organized them, it was simply that reaching 38 and then tapping the space bar, or clicking play caused the program to crash.

I also tried loading the project into 1.3.x and had the same exact results.

Also, memory is good, checked, and I have 2GB. When doing this sort of work, I try to kill as many unnecessary tasks as possible too, just to keep things clean.

Thank you for any assistance you can provide.

Diamond

[steve]

I'm using Audacity 1.3, so some of the details in this post may differ slightly from Audacity 1.2

Plenty of hard drive space means 100's of GB's on a defragged drive.

Regarding working with Audacity, this needs to be on the local drive that Audacity is using for the temporary files (drive C: by default). (I assume that you know that, but mentioning it just in case.) You can check the location of the default temporary files directory by going to "Edit menu > Preferences > Directories. Note that after you have saved a project, the project data folder is then used for temporary files instead of the default directory.

It is quite difficult to move the project from one computer to another

Seems like you are aware of most of the pitfalls.

If I ever need to move a project (which I mostly avoid because it can be a pain):

1) In Audacity Preferences > Import/Export tab, ensure that;
"make a copy of uncompressed audio files before editing (safer)" and
"always copy all audio into project (safest)"
are both selected.

2) Create a folder into which I will save the project (let's call it "my-project")

3) Make the project and save it to the directory .../my-project/

4) If space allows, Export each of the tracks (Export Selection) as FLAC files. This is just so that if the project breaks and I cannot access the original machine, I can reconstruct the project.

5) Copy the entire "my-project" directory (or Zip and copy) to USB/CD/DVD

6) Cross fingers and open the project (AUP) file in the "my-project" folder.

Check here in case I missed anything: http://audacityteam.org/wiki/index.php? ... ndent_file

Sorry for not getting back sooner, but the forum was down, or at least I could not access it for nearly three days.

Yes, problems with the service provider. The forum Admin have hacked the forum software to get it going again and are looking to a better long term solution.

The project worked as long as the number of tracks was less than 38. The magic number of tracks seemed to be 38 for this project.

I don't think that 38 is a magic number for Audacity, but it could be the magic number for your computer(s). On my old Pentium III the magic number is 10. It starts to struggle at 8, and at 10 it will either be very jerky and unresponsive or will lock up altogether.

There are a number of limiting factors governing the number of tracks. We tend to mention hard drives first because that is the most common cause of the problem but really it can be anything (CPU, RAM access, sound card access, hardware mixing capability...). On my old machine I think that 8 tracks is pretty good give the low specification of hardware, and the reason that I get as many as 8 is that the computer has been set up as a well balanced machine so that all the component parts hit their maximum performance at about the same time (so trying to go beyond 10 tracks is like hitting a brick wall because everything is working flat out). However I find that 8 tracks is more than adequate for the vast majority of tasks.

When dealing with many small audio clips, Audacity 1.3 is very much better. Multiple audio clips may be used on the same track.

For example - if you have
"audioclip1" on track one starting at t=0.5s and ending at t=2.3s
and on track 4 you have "audioclip6" starting at t=12.0s and ending at t=24.3s
Double click on "audioclip6" to select it
Press ENTER to deselect the track (note that t=12.0s tot t=24.3s is still selected on the time ruler)
Press UP cursor key to move to track one
Press ENTER to select track one (note that t=12.0s tot t=24.3s is still selected on the time ruler)
Press Ctrl+V to paste "audioclip6" into track one. (or paste from the Edit menu)
If there is no other data on track 4 then it can now be deleted.

(Instead of the ENTER key you can "SHIFT + Click" on the track panel).

Using this method you can have dozens (hundreds) of audio clips in as few as 8 tracks.


There are a lot of tips regarding improving record / playback performance here: http://audacityteam.org/wiki/index.php?title=Tips

Note that selecting the optimum sample rate can have a big effect on performance. Some sound cards work better at 48kHz, while other sound cards work best at 44.1kHz.

Using samples that are the same sample rate as the project will play much more efficiently as Audacity does not then need to resample them during playback. A batch format converter can be useful if you have a large stock of sound samples to change them all to the same sample rate.

Stereo tracks use almost twice as much effort for Audacity to play as mono tracks, so for mono sounds, use mono tracks.

Hopefully something useful in this post for you.

[kozikowski]

And in case we missed saying these specific words, Audacity 1.2 and 1.3 can coexist on the same machine as long as you don't open both at once.

As above, the machine may just run out of resources at that point. Really Strange things happen when you produce a show at the outer limits -- See: "I can't capture a show past 43 continuous hours. What shall I do?"

Audacity doesn't have a "show." It creates the show from shards and fragments in the Project as you go. It does all this in real time. So your machine has to have access to all 38 tracks and all their components and all their edits and all their special effects at the same time. You're on a PC, right? I bet when you press play on your show, the hard drive access light goes on and doesn't go off.

I would be producing two 18 track shows.

Koz

[diamond_socal]

Thank you to both of you for the great information.

I have installed 1.3 on my system and yes, you had mentioned that they can coexist.

The 38 number...it's possible that on this computer it could be an issue, but considering how beefy it is, it does make me wonder.

The project that I'm having them do is to basically record "Dr. Seuss" like books, short, nothing fancy, all for kindergarden children, and then bring them to life with real-world sound effects and voice overs. Originally, I digitized each page as a separate file thinking that it would be easier to synchronize a few sounds to a single page. That's when I first ran into the 38 number as there were 31 pages and it didn't take long to add sound. Then I decided to record the entire book in a single run. This did work as my final was around 32 tracks, the only problem is that it becomes harder to sync everything up as the main track literally gets farther and farther from the other tracks.

Steve, I will try your suggestion of sharing tracks with audio clips. This would be nice. In 1.2.6, sounds seem to want to be right next to the previous sound making me have to calculate the silence to insert. If 1.3 works better, I'm in!

I will have to look again at the clips to see, but I do think they were stereo. I can try to convert them and see what happens. Also a good suggestion, thanks.

Koz, when you asked if my hard drive light stayed solid, the answer was no. My system is quite fast and the clips are all pretty small. In fact, I've even run this off of a flash drive before, granted it did hiccup a few times!

One thing I noticed with 1.3 is that the Lame encoder doesn't work and shows that it is incompatible. So, if I have to have mp3, and I do, what's the solution?

Thanks to both of you for your assistance.

Diamond

[steve]

One thing I noticed with 1.3 is that the Lame encoder doesn't work and shows that it is incompatible. So, if I have to have mp3, and I do, what's the solution?

Audacity 1.3 requires a more recent version of Lame.
You can get it from here: http://audacityteam.org/wiki/index.php? ... stallation

Since you seem to have an older version of Lame, you may need to manually point Audacity to the new version (instructions in the linked page).