Files getting hosed when I SAVE

[BigDana]

Hi there. I'm a relatively new Audacity user -- I have 1.2.6. I'm using it in conjunction with a Fostex MR-8HD recorder, and my practice right now is to record the tracks on the Fostex, then use its WAVManager program to export the files to my PC (a 6-year-old HP laptop running Win XP SP2). I'm using Audacity to trim the beginnings and ends of the tracks, correct some intonation problems and add occasional equalization. These tracks are about 12mb in length, and are 16-bit, 44,100Hz, which is the only format the Fostex can handle. So I make sure that Audacity is set the same way.

I've just started experiencing a VERY frustrating problem, and I'm hoping for some help. I'll try to give you a blow-by-blow account -- hope this isn't too long.

1. I use Project > Import to bring the tracks into Audacity. The track names are always tr01, tr02, etc. They play just great at this point.
2. I click the Zoom In tool twice, maybe three times to be able to see things better.
3. Using Click-and-Drag, I highlight the "dead air" at the beginning of the first track. Then, with Shift-Click, I highlight the same area in the second track.
4. Then I use the "scissors" icon to cut out the dead air.
5. Then I scroll to the end of the tracks and do the same thing there.
6. Going back and checking the tracks, they still play great at this point.
7. I use File > Save Project As to save the project, with the name of the actual song (which is also the name of the folder in which the files are being saved). Then I use File Export Multiple to save the individual tracks to the same folder; WAV format, Split files based on Tracks, Overwrite originals, etc. I get a Message Box that says the files have been exported successfully.
8. Now is when things get fun. I close Audacity, then re-open it and re-open the project File > Open. I hit Play. The display changes as though I'd hit "Zoom In," though I didn't. However, things sound fine at first. Then, about 8 seconds in, the music starts repeating the first couple of bars -- over and over again. Tracks unusable.

This didn't happen the first few times I used the program, but now I've wrecked two numbers beyond repair. My anti-virus didn't turn up any problems during its normally-scheduled scan over last weekend.

Hope somebody can help! Tell me what I'm doing wrong!

Thanks!

[alatham]

Here's the problem:

1. I use Project > Import to bring the tracks into Audacity. The track names are always tr01, tr02, etc.

followed by:

Then I use File Export Multiple to save the individual tracks to the same folder; WAV format, Split files based on Tracks, Overwrite originals, etc.

(emphasis mine)

When you import a track into an Audacity project, that project will be dependent on the file you originally imported, even after you use the Save Project function. This is because Audacity 1.2.6 does not save any data if you haven't made any changes to it (which is what's happening here). So when you overwrote those original files, Audacity lost all the data that you didn't make any changes to. I wish Audacity 1.2.6 didn't behave that way, but wishes don't make your data come back.

I'm not sure why it would just loop like that, but once a piece of software gets into a weird state, strange things happen.

The bad news is your projects are fubared. Hopefully they're still saved on your Fostex recorder.

The good news is that Audacity 1.3.x can be set up to avoid this problem completely if "always copy all audio into project" is turned ON in the preferences -> Audio Files menu. But that means you'll have to upgrade.

I would also recommend you change Audacity's Default Sample Format to at least 24-bit, it's better for editing purposes. You can still export to 16-bit.

[kozikowski]

And just to emphasize that, "Save" will not give you a sound file.

To get a sound file that you can email to somebody, you need to Export a WAV or other format. Projects are traffic cops, effects instructions, managers, graphics, directors, and snippits, not sound files. When you play that 8 second clip, you're really playing one of the multiple effects files buried inside the _data folder.

As above, Projects are also still standing on the original capture clips. If you delete or move one of them (to "clean up" for example) you hose your project.

Koz

[BigDana]

Thanks, Koz.

I'm not totally sure you cleared it up (in my mind, anyhow), but in experimenting more today, I found that if I exported the (multiple) tracks first, and then saved the project, the tracks did not get blasted. I am assuming that the tracks will contain all my editing, including equalization? (Hope, hope!)

There were also times when the tracks just stopped playing, even though there were valid waveforms on the screen. Perhaps it's time to reboot the PC again.

Also, I downloaded the new BETA today and have started to play with it.

I imagine you'll be hearing from me again, from time to time.

[BigDana]

Oh, yes -- thanks to alatham too! I read down the responses too fast.

[kozikowski]

<<<the tracks just stopped playing, even though there were valid waveforms on the screen.>>>

Sure. That happens when the AUP file gets out of sync with The Real World and that happens when you delete or move one of your original, pre-edit sound files.

That always happens when somebody cleans up and deletes all those sound files that "they're not using any more." That can also happen when you disconnect a portable hard drive or USB device that had sound files on it. Did you pull that music CD out of the machine?

Any of that sound familiar?

Koz

[BigDana]

Hi, Koz.

In fact, I probably did move actual WAV files back and forth -- shouldn't have, I can see.

Getting back to alatham's original answer to me -- "al," if you're still monitoring, I think that you apparently misinterpreted my original explanation. In each case, I am importing these tracks into a brand-new project -- and each song is a different project, of course. And when this problem started happening, I would delete everything in the folder and start again. That also means that I deleted the [song-title]_data folder that Audacity created once I saved the project.

At this point in my labors, I'm merely trying to get edited and equalized files back to my Fostex. I'll add reverb there (hardware reverb is far superior to software). And I'll do the mixing there also, and have the machine create my two-track "master." Then everything comes back to the computer, to get burned.

Koz, you suggest that I change the Sample Format to at least 24-bit for editing. Would I gain anything in overall quality if I did this the last time I suck the files off the Fostex to the computer for burning? I know there's no such thing as a free lunch...

Thanks again, gang, for the help you're providing!

[kozikowski]

<<<change the Sample Format to at least 24-bit for editing.>>>

That wasn't me, but you should edit in the highest quality you can comfortably manage. If you try to edit and do effects in a format that is already right on the edge (44100,16,2--CD quality) or already has damage (MP3, MP4, AAC) then you're just begging for trouble. In the case of MP3, any effects you choose will be applied to the audio and the MP3 distortion. If you blow the finished show off to your iPod, you are compressing and damaging the enhanced damage with the effects on it.

It doesn't take long to destroy a track.

Koz

[alatham]

Getting back to alatham's original answer to me -- "al," if you're still monitoring, I think that you apparently misinterpreted my original explanation. In each case, I am importing these tracks into a brand-new project -- and each song is a different project, of course. And when this problem started happening, I would delete everything in the folder and start again. That also means that I deleted the [song-title]_data folder that Audacity created once I saved the project.

Yes, that would also give you the same issue, but I still stand by my statement that you should not overwrite those files when you use Export Multiple. That will kill a 1.2.6 project (and a 1.3.x project if leave Audacity at it's default setting).

[BigDana]

you should edit in the highest quality you can comfortably manage

Thanks, Koz -- I get the idea. FWIW, these projects are for CD only -- no MP3. I will give it a try -- once the files no longer need to be massaged by the Fostex, I'll bump 'em up (after backing them up, of course).

I still stand by my statement that you should not overwrite those files

And it's an excellent point. I have enough hard drive "real estate" on this laptop to keep multiple versions. If I'd done that in the beginning, I'd have a copy of the originals to work with. As it is, I must sit my wife down at the piano, with headphones, and have her re-create the accompaniments of two of the songs.

Thanks again to both of you!