Questions about 3x3' room size with tall ceilings and reverb!

Special Interest Groups Audiobook Production
1

Hello,

Is decent room acoustic treatment possible in a 3x3 space with high ceilings? Regardless, there’s another issue that complicates it (a gap at the top leading to another space)…

I have this very strange, small place to record, and no other options in my house at this time. It’s a narrower-than-usual hallway (I’d say about 3.2 feet wide by maybe 7 or 8 feet long), with 3 doors to/from it, in a 1916 house. Said hallway is sorta divided in half into two necessary “closet” type spaces - so we don’t actually use it as a hallway. The first half of the closet acts as shoe storage accessed by the front entry way, leaving about 3 feet per each side of hallway. So my recording space is only about 3x3’, and has not one but two doors on that side! I enter it from the rear door so that side door just stays shut.

The sound issues and annoying complications are:
-the ceilings are annoyingly high (not sure how high but imagine an old house with typical high ceilings)
-the acoustic quilts (2 plus 1 basic moving quilt) hang from large, long clamps that have upper portions that screw into the wall, but the clamps are long enough that they prevent the quilt from reaching the ceiling if that makes sense due to the way they have to hang. So there’s about 4" of space between the top of quilt and the ceiling, leading to the other half of hallway (other “closet”) that hasn’t been sound-treated and would be costly to treat. Is sound likely getting in/out through that gap?!
-there are two doors to have to sound-dampen, one that’s pointless but there nonetheless. I’ll attempt to treat using weather strip and foam (?).
-there’s decorative horizontal molding that juts out in odd places along the hallway, preventing acoustic quilts from hanging flush against the walls
-and so far only have those quilts for sound dampening, which haven’t worked well enough.

I’m waiting for an order of 12z12 foam tiles (2" thick) to arrive from Amazon in the next day or so (46 or so in all). While the hallway has hardwood floors, I bought a carpet pad and plush carpet and added it to the floor of the recording side.

My questions are:
-Is sound likely getting in/out through that gap?!
-If you suggest that the ceilings are too high and I lower it somehow, HOW ON EARTH would I do that?? :frowning: Feeling stupid and uncreative.
-Should I put foam on the ceiling then somehow extend it at an angle downward (spray glue or whatever) to fill in that upper gap, or is that single quilt dividing the hallway not enough to block sound from traveling and bouncing off the other side of the hallway regardless of gap?
-Regardless do you think it will help to put foam on the ceiling even with the height and that gap?
-the quilts are so high up that they expose about 1.5 feet of bare wall space at the bottom around the perimeter. I don’t have enough foam to cover every inch of the space much less the entire hallway, so am I correct to assume the most important spaces WITH the quilts, are the lower portions of the walls, the ceiling above the 3x3 space with hopefully something hanging over that gap, the doors, and anything left over be distributed evenly behind the quilts along the walls?
-Or, should I take the extra foam and extend it along the entire hallway ceiling (not covering all of it but some main areas)?
-Is the space/gap BEHIND the hanging quilts (where there ARE walls) a real acoustics problem? Should that be a higher priority?

This was a lot - thank you for your time!!

2
3

Hi Trebor - I’ve seen that video before, and it’s a great one, but I’m having a hard time understanding how it pertains to my questions. :laughing: While I obviously had several questions, the first and foremost one is whether the size of a 3x3 space with super high ceilings can even be made to work well as a sound booth (with foam etc). Second would be whether the 4" gap at the top of the hanging acoustic quilt - that leads to the other side of the hallway (which it too is also a 3 x 3 space) might possibly be a big problem for acoustics.

Thanks!

p.s. I don’t have a real walk-in nor coat closet available to me…only a hallway divided into two fake closets but without a real wall between them (just a hanging acoustic quilt).

4

I was thinking you could try using a closet (full of clothes) rather than applying sound absorbing treatment to the hallway.


The quilts work better if there is an air-gap between them & the wall.

5

Desperation method has you deadening opposing walls. In the case of the ceiling, that means throw acoustic mud on the floor. Drop by the carpeting store, wait until they go to bed and pick up some of the old heavy carpet remnants and carpeting padding from their dumpster.

preventing acoustic quilts from hanging flush against the walls

Nobody wrote you have to jam the quilts against the wall. They actually work slightly better if you don’t. Leave a tiny air gap between them.

which haven’t worked well enough.

How do you know that? Have you actually made a voice recording in there? I don’t know that I’d worry about tiny hard features of the room. It’s the broad hard surfaces that cause the problems.

How are you lighting the area? you can’t have CFL, LED, Fluorescent or other high-tech lighting. You’re usually limited to Tungsten Incandescent non-dimmed and LED if you’re absolutely sure they make no noise in normal operation. I have some early LED lamps that sizzle or buzz when used. Run away.

Candles work, but I’m not recommending those.

And speaking of heat. How are you going to air condition or heat the area? How long can you stay in there before you can’t breathe any more?

There’s a photography darkroom trick you can apply to sound. Walk into the room and just sit there for five minutes (or more) and see if you can see (hear) anything. In my darkroom case, there was a light leak around one of the heating vents. Not visible until my eyes got used to the dark.

Can you hear the computer running? How are you going to record the voice? After you sit there reading a book for a while, can you tell when the refrigerator kicks on? Cars go by? You don’t need us to diagnose this from multiple time zones. You and the ears can do pretty well.

The studio is doing two things. Keeping stray sounds out and knocking down echoes. There’s no way to fix echoes. Once it sounds like you’re recording in a bathroom, you’re dead.

I don’t think you ever told us what the room splitter was made of. Does it make thunder noises when you pound on it with your fist. That could cause problems. I assume the rest of the walls are plaster/lath. Terrific for sound isolation.

Inside view.


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If it’s possible, record a sound test from what you got so far.

http://www.kozco.com/tech/audacity/TestClip/Record_A_Clip.html

Koz

6

Trebor - yeah unfortunately there aren’t any closets in this house - just this makeshift one. And the foam was already on its way when I wrote (just arrived in fact) and I already had the 3 quilts (two being official acoustic quilts). I finally measured and the ceiling is 9 feet high.


7

What broke my paradigm about soundproofing was a video of a guy improving his sound quality in a big way by throwing a blanket over his head. That morphed into me suspending blankets from the shower curtain rod and making a little lopsided teepee for myself. To offset that high ceiling you could, with a few plastic wall anchors, and $2 in hardware, suspend a rod across the space, then suspend blankets, quilts, whatever from that. A nice plush bathroom rug would complete the floor treatment. I bought a little TV tray stand thingy that’s my ‘desk’ and it all sounds pretty good and costs all of five bucks.

8

Note: there are other replies by me embedded in the beige box below but not obvious as this first part is. Sorry!

I bought a carpet pad and carpet remnant to line the hardwood floor. What are you saying re. the ceiling? Can/should I tread it or are you saying not to because it’s an opposing wall? My inclination is to get some foam up on it. Do you have an answer about my biggest concern: small tiny space vs. high ceilings? Is it possible scientifically that it can work?

Desperation method has you deadening > opposing walls> . In the case of the ceiling, that means throw acoustic mud on the floor. Drop by the carpeting store, wait until they go to bed and pick up some of the old heavy carpet remnants and carpeting padding from their dumpster.



preventing acoustic quilts from hanging flush against the walls



Nobody wrote you have to jam the quilts against the wall. They actually work slightly better if you don’t. Leave a tiny air gap between them.

Good - I was hoping that wasn’t a problem, thanks.

which haven’t worked well enough.



How do you know that? Have you actually made a voice recording in there? I don’t know that I’d worry about tiny hard features of the room. It’s the broad hard surfaces that cause the problems.

I wrote that it hasn’t worked well enough because yes of course I’ve recorded myself in there. I know the dead/dry sound it’s supposed to sound like (have recorded in a pro studio) and while it’s not exactly echo-y, it’s nowhere near dead enough. Again, I’m not sure this can ever be thoroughly fixed but I need it to sound close enough to dead that I’d only have to do a minimum amount of post-processing to make it better.

How are you lighting the area? you can’t have CFL, LED, Fluorescent or other high-tech lighting. You’re usually limited to Tungsten Incandescent non-dimmed and LED if you’re > absolutely sure > they make no noise in normal operation. I have some early LED lamps that sizzle or buzz when used. Run away.

I don’t have problems with lights making sound. I have a tiny LED light - no issues there.

Candles work, but I’m not recommending those.

And speaking of heat. How are you going to air condition or heat the area? How long can you stay in there before you can’t breathe any more?

I’m worried about this, but I saw this and am hoping something can be rigged:

Alternatively if the rest of the room gets treated well enough and most of the reverb goes away, I could always crack the door behind me and take breaks. My goal isn’t to soundproof - just to make it dryer. Sorta like the video you linked me to - the guy was facing his closet but had a big room behind him only it would be even less (just a crack).

There’s a photography darkroom trick you can apply to sound. Walk into the room and just sit there for five minutes (or more) and see if you can see (hear) anything. In my darkroom case, there was a light leak around one of the heating vents. Not visible until my eyes got used to the dark.

Can you hear the computer running? How are you going to record the voice? After you sit there reading a book for a while, can you tell when the refrigerator kicks on? Cars go by? You don’t need us to diagnose this from multiple time zones. You and the ears can do pretty well

.

I do have a noisy laptop but will be bringing in a monitor and keyboard/mouse, and will connect the monitor to a 15-ft cable that will run under the door (cushioned by the thick carpet remnant) to the laptop so there will no longer be a laptop motor noise.

The space has a living room on one side, a stairway to basement on the other, and outside the door I enter it by is a 7 x 8’ office (originally in these old houses known as a “breakfast room”) that has a swinging door after you turn a corner, that leads to the kitchen (which is on the other side of the basement stairway). There is a heater/ a/c vent outside the door to the recording space. The furnace and a/c are both modern and efficient and don’t make a whole lot of sound but if so I could always close the vent (a/c won’t be an issue at all - super quiet, but the heater could possibly - if at all).

The fridge while also modern can get noisy when it makes more ice (not the ice dropping, which is rare - just the motor) but that’s seldom and doesn’t seem to be heard from the distance there is and two closed doors. We live on a quiet street and the hallway/“closet” sits in the middle of the house, besides (one of the reasons I picked it). Our front door leading to yard then street has the vestibule’s door before it, then the door to the hallway that leads to me, then the hanging acoustic quilt, before reaching the 3x3 space.

The back of the house (closer to the door I use to enter the space) is a small office with windows to the back yard and privacy with a huge English laurel hedge. Neighbors close audible doors only on one side but the living room and our driveway is between that and my recording space. I never hear anything (and it’s not soundproofed, again) unless my family’s home. Luckily I can send them all to the attic two floors up, if desperate enough (where there’s a TV and couch etc). Most recording - if this all works out - would be during the day when they’re all gone.

The studio is doing two things. Keeping stray sounds out and knocking down echoes. There’s no way to fix echoes. Once it sounds like you’re recording in a bathroom, you’re dead.

Why would you say there’s no way to fix echoes?? That’s the whole point of sound-deadening. Unless, that is, my weird 9-foot ceiling height and small 3x3 space adjoining the other 3x3 space on the other side, makes it impossible to fix (yes? no? any idea if possible?).

I don’t think you ever told us what the room splitter was made of. Does it make thunder noises when you pound on it with your fist. That could cause problems. I assume the rest of the walls are plaster/lath. Terrific for sound isolation.

I told you, but I gave you too much to read so it was buried in TMI. :wink: All that separates the two spaces is a relatively short shoe rack and one of the acoustic quilts hanging there (but which has a 4" gap at the top, leading to the other side, which could possibly be covered up (duct tape and foam?!) but couldn’t be helped otherwise.

Inside view.



Screen Shot 2019-04-25 at 17.47.06.png


If it’s possible, record a sound test from what you got so far.

I have, and you’d agree it’s not quite there yet.

http://www.kozco.com/tech/audacity/TestClip/Record_A_Clip.html

Koz


Thanks again Koz!

9

Right. And I have all the pieces to make a teepee on my desk from cheap plastic plumbing pipes and throw one of the blankets over it. All these work and it’s your particular environment that dictates which direction you go. I’m dying to hear a sound check.


The formatting of the forum dialog is carried by tags similar to writing a web page or other web-based content.

There’s a start tag and an end tag and you can write them or move them by hand. You don’t have to depend on the button shortcuts on the top of the page. For example, if you type this…


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It will look like this when you post it to the forum or try it with the Preview button.


this text will appear quoted

So now you know how to go down your postings and correct renegade, broken, or missing quote tags. Or add your own to post what you really meant to say.


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This will appear Bold.

Koz

10

Why would you say there’s no way to fix echoes?? That’s the whole point of sound-deadening.

There’s no way to fix echoes in post production editing. You have to fix them at the live talking step.

I had dinner at a house with a stunning, high-ceiling living room. It had cathedral sound. “Hang on a second, I’ll call a singer I know. I got the microphones in the car.”

The desperation method of deadening opposing walls means if you do get an echo, there will only be one and if you get lucky, a short one. If you leave opposing walls live, you will get echoes forever. I had an office like that. The left and right walls were live and perfectly flat to each other. The joke was I could clap loudly and go to lunch. The clap would be still slapping back and forth between the walls when I got back.

You can do OK with one wall but best practice is to sound proof both.

I would see how you do leaving the ceiling alone. There’s another fuzzy rule having to do with distance between you and the microphone and the microphone and the wall. If you make the difference large enough, you may never hear the damage.


I grew up in a house like that. The deadness of the walls was more than made up by the noises the clapboard floors made. There were beams in the basement that still had bark on them.

Koz

11

Why would you say there’s no way to fix echoes?? That’s the whole point of sound-deadening.

There’s no way to fix echoes in post production editing. You have to fix them at the live talking step.

I had dinner at a house with a stunning, high-ceiling living room. It had cathedral sound. “Hang on a second, I’ll call a singer I know. I got the microphones in the car.”

The desperation method of deadening opposing walls means if you do get an echo, there will only be one and if you get lucky, a short one. If you leave opposing walls live, you will get echoes forever. I had an office like that. The left and right walls were live and perfectly flat to each other. The joke was I could clap loudly and go to lunch. The clap would be still slapping back and forth between the walls when I got back.

You can do OK with one wall but best practice is to sound proof both.

I would see how you do leaving the ceiling alone. There’s another fuzzy rule having to do with distance between you and the microphone and the microphone and the wall. If you make the difference large enough, you may never hear the damage.


I grew up in a house like that. The deadness of the walls was more than made up by the noises the clapboard floors made. There were beams in the basement that still had bark on them.

Koz

12

I went through and edited your submission. The only part that failed was the picture. You have to post that as an attachment.

Post the picture on your desktop or somewhere you know the location of.

Bottom of a text page > Attachments > Add files > Point it to your desktop picture file.

After it arrives, you can leave it at the bottom of your text message, or you can Place inline and it will stick the picture wherever your cursor is.

Koz

13

Again catching up. Since you have recorded in a real studio, you know what they sound like. The only reason you would need us to actively compare results and solutions is if you got really close but were not able to reach ACX conformance.

Sometimes that Last Mile can drive you nuts.

It can be argued that the furniture moving pad in the middle of the room is the best place for it. It can suppress echoes and noises from multiple directions and help suppress talking-in-a-box resonance effects. Sound panels get slightly less effective as they approach hard surfaces. That’s why nobody got excited when you said you were not able to jam one quilt right against the wall.

OK. That works.

Next.

The only real problem with that is the reduction of performance space. But again from above, if your model is throwing a blanket over your head, this may be an improvement.

And now that you have your cable routing and connections all settled, we are reminded that if you have to struggle with computer problems past about two weeks or so, you might consider a stand-alone sound recorder and ditch the computer until later when you do post-production editing.

That’s an old Zoom H4. One of our posters is using a Zoom H2n.


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Koz